Kohli’s contribution in building the Indian test bowling attack?

[express bowling]

One issue about our the next gen fast bowlers is that ... the immediate " generation " after Shami and Bumrah lack that wow factor. 

 

Both Bumrah and Shami had that wow factor, i.e one look at them bowling and you really wanted them to play for your team. The intensity, objectivity, pace and bounce were all there. 

 

I see that wow factor again in Tyagi and Mavi ( fully fit ).  To some extent Prasidh too barring his attitude. 

 

If Tyagi and Mavi are kept in the cold for long ... after they gather experience ... it will be a black spot on the captain.

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by express bowling

[New guy]

You will always see young captian with fresh ideas benefiting the team. Happeneded with Ganguly, dhoni and kohli and even others like Dravid, etc. Its when they get stale and their strategy outdated and they get too comfortable and wanting to remain in limelight and glory, when it becomes a problem 

 

There was a good thread here about a captains shelf life. If we rotate captains on time, we will keep progressing, instead of 2 steps forward with a young captain and then one step back with a stale captain 

[Ankit_sharma03]

53 minutes ago, express bowling said:

One issue about our the next gen fast bowlers is that ... the immediate " generation " after Shami and Bumrah lack that wow factor. 

 

Both Bumrah and Shami had that wow factor, I.e one look at them bowling and you really wanted them to play for your team. The intensity, objectivity, pace and bounce were all there. 

 

I see that wow factor again in Tyagi and Mavi ( fully fit ).  To some extent Prasidh too barring his attitude. 

 

If Tyagi and Mavi are kept in the cold for long ... after they gather experience ... it will be a black spot on the captain.

 

 

Nathu had wow factor what his status ?

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Nathu had wow factor what his status ?

 

 

Yes ... Nathu Singh definitely had the wow factor.

 

But seems to be gone for ever.

 

Does not seem to be interested in cricket any more.

 

I don't know why BCCI did not  look after his rehabilitation.

 

It raises quite a few questions about our talent identification and grooming process.

[ShoonyaSifar]

56 minutes ago, express bowling said:

One issue about our the next gen fast bowlers is that ... the immediate " generation " after Shami and Bumrah lack that wow factor. 

 

Both Bumrah and Shami had that wow factor, I.e one look at them bowling and you really wanted them to play for your team. The intensity, objectivity, pace and bounce were all there. 

 

I see that wow factor again in Tyagi and Mavi ( fully fit ).  To some extent Prasidh too barring his attitude. 

 

If Tyagi and Mavi are kept in the cold for long ... after they gather experience ... it will be a black spot on the captain.

 

On wow factor, both Umesh and Aaron scored much better than Shami and Bumrah. Umesh bowling 145+ in domestic cricket, and an entire 8-10 over spell of 140+ in a televised Irani Trophy match (could be 2010-11 perhaps), then Aaron bowling an over of 150+ in a televised   match (perhaps Deodhar Trophy). Umesh then bowled 150+ in Australia touching a peak speed of 153 kmph in 2011-12 CB series in Australia. Sadly both of them could not go onto fulfilling the immense potential they had shown (Dhoni's love for trundlers was a big factor as well)

[express bowling]

54 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

On wow factor, both Umesh and Aaron scored much better than Shami and Bumrah. Umesh bowling 145+ in domestic cricket, and an entire 8-10 over spell of 140+ in a televised Irani Trophy match (could be 2010-11 perhaps), then Aaron bowling an over of 150+ in a televised   match (perhaps Deodhar Trophy). Umesh then bowled 150+ in Australia touching a peak speed of 153 kmph in 2011-12 CB series in Australia. Sadly both of them could not go onto fulfilling the immense potential they had shown (Dhoni's love for trundlers was a big factor as well)

 

 

I am not talking about just high pace.

 

A pacer with " Wow factor " combines objectivity and intensity with pace and bounce. Does not have to be the quickest. But he gets some balls to rear up from just short of a length.

 

Both Umesh and Aaron used to bowl some random quick balls without any plan in mind. They lacked objectivity. Plus a young Umesh lacked bounce ( older Umesh, bowling 5 kph slower, gets some balls to bounce nastily )

 

I see that objectivity in Tyagi and Mavi ( among young pacers with pace and bounce )

 

 

 

Umesh lacks objectivity, accuracy

 

Aaron lacked objectivity, accuracy

 

Saini lacks objectivity and bounce off his good length balls

 

Siraj lacks extra pace

 

Natarajan lacks extra pace and bounce

 

Shardul lacks extra pace, bounce, height and accuracy

 

Prasidh lacks that extra zeal, seems to be down at times 

 

Nagarkoti lacks height and natural bounce. He has lost some zip off the deck too.

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

The mistake we all make is thinking that India has started getting world class fast bowlers just now. This is far from the truth. India has always had good fast bowlers, atleast from 90's onwards. Srinath, Zaheer, Pathan, Srishanth or even Agarkar for that matter. 

The problem in the past was India never had a good bowling partner. That has been making the difference now. 

Are we crediting Kohli too much for wins on the basis of fast bowlers? 

Sachin is universally regarded as a poor captain. But lets look at his record -

 

1997 Johannesburg Test against SA - India was on the verge of victory, but the bowlers couldnt polish off the SA tail! 

1997 - Barbados Test against WI - India lost the advantage because the bowlers couldnt take the last 4 wickets. 

97 Bridgetown test against WI - India bundled out for 80, although the bowlers did their job! 

 

If we had 3 good fast bowlers, Sachin may have been regarded as a top captain!

 

If virat did not have the services of the 4-5 great fast bowlers we have today, Virat may well be one of the poor captains! 

 

Indian team for the first time in their history has 4-5 great fast bowlers bowling in tandem. That is Virat's legacy or luck. Has he developed them? NO

Has he taken the initiative of stressing on a pace battery for test team? YES

 

Credit can only be given that he atleast gave the chance to the bowlers. Anything more than that is egaggeration!

 

[putrevus]

^^ You are completely wrong. Did Dhoni have Umesh, Shami and Ishant . How did they do under him. How are they doing under Kohli? Kohli did not get those great fast bowlers.He made them great by putting fitness as priority and the way he handles and gives importance to fast bowler even in home tests.

 

Doing well in one off test test here and there  was always happening since 1980s. Here under Kohli these fast bowlers are competing to be historically best.Next test will prove if there is solid fast bowling culture when they will miss three front line bowlers.

[New guy]

7 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

The mistake we all make is thinking that India has started getting world class fast bowlers just now. This is far from the truth. India has always had good fast bowlers, atleast from 90's onwards. Srinath, Zaheer, Pathan, Srishanth or even Agarkar for that matter. 

The problem in the past was India never had a good bowling partner. That has been making the difference now. 

Are we crediting Kohli too much for wins on the basis of fast bowlers? 

Sachin is universally regarded as a poor captain. But lets look at his record -

 

1997 Johannesburg Test against SA - India was on the verge of victory, but the bowlers couldnt polish off the SA tail! 

1997 - Barbados Test against WI - India lost the advantage because the bowlers couldnt take the last 4 wickets. 

97 Bridgetown test against WI - India bundled out for 80, although the bowlers did their job! 

 

If we had 3 good fast bowlers, Sachin may have been regarded as a top captain!

 

If virat did not have the services of the 4-5 great fast bowlers we have today, Virat may well be one of the poor captains! 

 

Indian team for the first time in their history has 4-5 great fast bowlers bowling in tandem. That is Virat's legacy or luck. Has he developed them? NO

Has he taken the initiative of stressing on a pace battery for test team? YES

 

Credit can only be given that he atleast gave the chance to the bowlers. Anything more than that is egaggeration!

 

Dhoni had ishant  shami and yadav and they were very ordinary under him. I still remember dhoni spoon feeding ishant and asking him to bowl every single delivery short, around the wicket, every ball. No fast bowler can develop if we spoon feed them 

[ravishingravi]

1) Benchmark was a real defensive captain who did not use fast bowlers well. Anybody would look good bed to this benchmark. 
 

2) Kohli’s aggressive approach was a refreshing change for fast bowlers. But Kohli didn’t do anything to make them bowl fast. He was encouraging at best. It was the infrastructure, fitness and academies producing the results during his time. 

[rollingstoned]

kohli does deserve some credit imo, our test success under him owes a lot to his aggressive disposition and emphasis on fitness which has had an uplifting effect on our pace bowlers. yes there are other factors at play in that too for which we cannot credit him wholly like having test specialists since 2015 and the benefits reaped from changing emphasis in domestic cricket vis a vis fast bowlers since the last 20 years. Other factor we are ignoring is B arun who i think is a pretty good bowling coach.

[Jimmy Cliff]

M-i-n-i-m-a-l.

[Laaloo]

3 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

M-i-n-i-m-a-l.

Still an upgrade over thala who used to malign non trundlers in public 

[Rightarmfast]

On 1/1/2021 at 6:34 PM, putrevus said:

^^ You are completely wrong. Did Dhoni have Umesh, Shami and Ishant . How did they do under him. How are they doing under Kohli? Kohli did not get those great fast bowlers.He made them great by putting fitness as priority and the way he handles and gives importance to fast bowler even in home tests.

 

Doing well in one off test test here and there  was always happening since 1980s. Here under Kohli these fast bowlers are competing to be historically best.Next test will prove if there is solid fast bowling culture when they will miss three front line bowlers.

Players take a few years to transform themselves to their best. And it is applicable mores o with Indian fast bowlers. So, although Shami, Ishant, Aaron and Umesh played under Dhoni, they were raw. Over a period of time, they developed their skills to be the best version of themselves which coincided with Kohli’s captaincy. Its just as simple as that.

This is absolutely elementary, Watson! But then again, according to your logic an opener is not responsible for a collapse when he gets out on zero! Need I say more?  

[Rightarmfast]

On 1/1/2021 at 9:10 PM, New guy said:

Dhoni had ishant  shami and yadav and they were very ordinary under him. I still remember dhoni spoon feeding ishant and asking him to bowl every single delivery short, around the wicket, every ball. No fast bowler can develop if we spoon feed them 

My previous reply is sufficient for your logic! 

[New guy]

8 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Players take a few years to transform themselves to their best. And it is applicable mores o with Indian fast bowlers. So, although Shami, Ishant, Aaron and Umesh played under Dhoni, they were raw. Over a period of time, they developed their skills to be the best version of themselves which coincided with Kohli’s captaincy. Its just as simple as that.

This is absolutely elementary, Watson! But then again, according to your logic an opener is not responsible for a collapse when he gets out on zero! Need I say more?  

Ishant showed great promise and has been playing since he was a teen. Even umesh played enough. Under a better captain both of them would have prospered long ago

[putrevus]

17 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Players take a few years to transform themselves to their best. And it is applicable mores o with Indian fast bowlers. So, although Shami, Ishant, Aaron and Umesh played under Dhoni, they were raw. Over a period of time, they developed their skills to be the best version of themselves which coincided with Kohli’s captaincy. Its just as simple as that.

This is absolutely elementary, Watson! But then again, according to your logic an opener is not responsible for a collapse when he gets out on zero! Need I say more?  

You still need to understand what collapse means first, first understand what that word means in cricket  and then we will discuss about it.

 

Second you need to understand history of  Indian fast bowlers, most Indian fast bowlers burst into India team and did well initially  and rarely ever had fruitful careers. Shami and Yadav would have fallen into long list of Indian fast bowlers who did well intially and then went into oblivion.When you understand that history you will understand what Kohli's captaincy means to fast bowling culture in India.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by putrevus

[Rightarmfast]

17 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You still need to understand what collapse means first, first understand what that word means in cricket  and then we will discuss about it.

 

Second you need to understand history of  Indian fast bowlers, most Indian fast bowlers burst into India team and did well initially  and rarely ever had fruitful careers. Shami and Yadav would have fallen into long list of Indian fast bowlers who did well intially and then went into oblivion.When you understand that history you will understand what Kohli's captaincy means to fast bowling culture in India.

 

 

 

 

Ohh thanks for the history lessons. But a part of me thinks you have missed major chapters in Indian fast bowling history. Try first checking the career graph of Shami, Umesh and Ishant and then come back. 

Get your basics right before posting some mumbo jumbo here. Atleast back it up with facts and data.

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Ohh thanks for the history lessons. But a part of me thinks you have missed major chapters in Indian fast bowling history. Try first checking the career graph of Shami, Umesh and Ishant and then come back. 

Get your basics right before posting some mumbo jumbo here. Atleast back it up with facts and data.

You are welcome.It will appear as mumbo jumbo for a guy who still has no clue what collpase means.  I never included Ishant in my statements.  Go look how many fast bowlers played under Dhoni and how many played Kohli, they have captained almost same number of matches.  If you still don't understand the difference then there is no point in discussing further.