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"Slip Of Tongue": Former Pakistan Skipper Disagrees With Rohit Sharma Terming Ravichandran Ashwin An "All-Time Great"

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zen Grand Master

zen

Posted
Posted

Talking about Dennis Lillee, considering that countries would want to do well  in most major countries (not just in Ind and SL), if there is an option to pick only one bowler among Lillee and Indian bowlers, most would likely pick Lillee (and maybe even over any Indian cricketer) :hmmm:

 

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Trichromatic Mentor

Trichromatic

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, zen said:


Ashwin & co can do zilch against its own batting line up in “flat” conditions (I guess Ind would have gone in with 3 pace bowlers on such wkts too :rolleyes: )

 

And we saw how Ashwin does on “non-tailored” pitches :phehe:

 

 

 

List of logic given against Ashwin

1. Could have/would have.

2. Pitch becomes flat when India bats, becomes rank turner when Ashwin bowls.

3. Ashwin has 0 wickets against India and unproven against Indian batsmen, so can't be considered as ATG.

 

Please add more.

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zen Grand Master

zen

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

List of logic given against Ashwin

1. Could have/would have.

2. Pitch becomes flat when India bats, becomes rank turner when Ashwin bowls.

3. Ashwin has 0 wickets against India and unproven against Indian batsmen, so can't be considered as ATG.

 

Please add more.


It is self explainatory -  Ashwin & co need “tailored” conditions to “perform” … If not, they would be generally successful everywhere.

 

The avgs you listed are of Ind batsmen, who are batting against relatively inexperienced (for the conditions) bowlers.

 

For e.g. Warne and Murali do not do as well relatively speaking against Ind batsmen in Ind (Like Indian spinners in India, Indian batsmen like Sidhu dominated too in such conditions). While Indian bowlers including Raju, Kumble, Joshi, Bhajji, Ashwin, Jadeja, Axar, etc., have done well versus visiting teams. If Warne & Murali bowl to their own teams on “tailored” pitches, they would be relatively more successful. 

 

When strong Asian teams like Pak have visited India, Ind has struggled to be dominant. Lost the series in 1987 at B’lore on a spin friendly surface where a Iqbal Qasim wrapped things up. In 1999, 2-1 to Pak including the Asian Test Championship test, test series 1-1 (Kumble took 10 in an inning to give Ind its only win). In 2007 or so, Pak drew the series when Ind batsmen could not bat last two sessions at B’lore.

 

And of course, the recent series versus Eng! 
 

Rank turners (garbage pitches turning from day 1), spin assisting surfaces (turning from day 2/3), and surfaces deteriorating  rapidly on day 4 where spinners open the bowling too (after Ind would have batted 1st or 2nd posting a big total against less experienced bowlers) have all been observed and count towards “tailored” pitches. :no:
 

Edited by zen
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Vilander Mentor

Vilander

Posted
Posted

lets see some Ashwin facts.

 

SENA Away - Much worse that Prasanna/Chandrasekhar who are the best Indian spinners ever, comparable in certain aspects to Kumble/Bedi but worse, more at Jadeja, Sashtri level, even they have better average and strikerate. Harbhajan appears marginally superior. If we draw 'good' line with Harbhajan  - then Ashwin might just be below as not good enough along with Jadeja.

 

 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;host=1;host=2;host=3;host=5;orderby=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

Home or away away (home of opposition)
Host country Australia  or England  or New Zealand or South Africa 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler 
Ordered by wickets taken (descending)
Page 1 of 14 Showing 1 - 50 of 683  

 

 

   
Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
SK Warne (AUS) 1993-2006 43 84 12951 5358 239 7/165 12/246 22.41 2.48 54.1 11 3 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
A Kumble (INDIA) 1990-2008 35 67 11317 5224 141 8/141 12/279 37.04 2.76 80.2 5 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
LR Gibbs (WI) 1961-1976 33 61 11759 3950 129 6/39 11/157 30.62 2.01 91.1 9 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL) 1995-2007 23 36 7576 3337 125 9/65 16/220 26.69 2.64 60.6 10 5 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
CV Grimmett (AUS) 1926-1936 18 33 7718 2649 111 7/40 13/173 23.86 2.05 69.5 12 4 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
AL Valentine (WI) 1950-1961 22 38 7684 2422 94 8/104 11/204 25.76 1.89 81.7 6 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
BS Bedi (INDIA) 1967-1979 25 42 7076 2789 90 6/127 10/194 30.98 2.36 78.6 5 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
S Ramadhin (WI) 1950-1961 22 36 7699 2466 89 7/49 11/152 27.70 1.92 86.5 8 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
WJ O'Reilly (AUS) 1934-1946 15 27 5196 1801 85 7/54 11/129 21.18 2.07 61.1 7 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Mushtaq Ahmed (PAK) 1990-2001 19 31 5156 2361 84 7/56 10/171 28.10 2.74 61.3 6 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
NM Lyon (AUS) 2011-2019 24 46 5572 2762 83 6/49 9/161 33.27 2.97 67.1 2 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
EAS Prasanna (INDIA) 1967-1978 20 34 5771 2336 78 8/76 11/140 29.94 2.42 73.9 5 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
HJ Tayfield (SA) 1952-1960 17 27 5947 2027 78 7/81 13/165 25.98 2.04 76.2 6 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DL Underwood (ENG) 1970-1980 18 34 5300 1899 74 7/113 12/97 25.66 2.14 71.6 4 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA) 1967-1979 19 32 4994 2225 71 6/38 12/104 31.33 2.67 70.3 6 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ) 1997-2011 26 39 6077 2711 70 6/87 8/229 38.72 2.67 86.8 5 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Danish Kaneria (PAK) 2003-2010 17 33 5179 2682 69 7/168 8/204 38.86 3.10 75.0 4 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
FJ Titmus (ENG) 1962-1975 22 39 7194 2414 68 7/79 7/79 35.50 2.01 105.7 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
J Briggs (ENG) 1884-1898 23 32 3417 1400 67 8/11 15/28 20.89 2.45 51.0 4 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
H Trumble (AUS) 1890-1902 17 30 3691 1491 67 8/65 12/89 22.25 2.42 55.0 5 3 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Ashwin (INDIA) 2011-2022 23 40 5685 2709 66 4/55 7/121 41.04 2.85 86.1 0 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Peel (ENG) 1884-1895 14 24 4169 1358 63 6/67 9/58 21.55 1.95 66.1 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA) 1998-2011 19 34 4796 2476 62 7/120 7/102 39.93 3.09 77.3 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
HMRKB Herath (SL) 2005-2017 21 35 4986 2437 57 5/79 9/128 42.75 2.93 87.4 2 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Benaud (AUS) 1953-1961 17 29 4556 1650 55 6/70 9/144 30.00 2.17 82.8 5 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
C Blythe (ENG) 1901-1910 13 25 3202 1274 52 7/46 11/118 24.50 2.38 61.5 3 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
W Bates (ENG) 1881-1887 15 23 2364 821 50 7/28 14/102 16.42 2.08 47.2 4 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
W Rhodes (ENG) 1903-1921 30 49 3475 1553 50 8/68 15/124 31.06 2.68 69.5 3 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
PCR Tufnell (ENG) 1990-2000 17 30 5025 1829 48 7/47 11/147 38.10 2.18 104.6 2 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Intikhab Alam (PAK) 1962-1974 22 35 4251 2014 47 7/52 11/130 42.85 2.84 90.4 3 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RA Jadeja (INDIA) 2013-2021 17 29 3893 1712 47 6/138 7/258 36.42 2.63 82.8 1 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RJ Shastri (INDIA) 1981-1992 21 36 4340 1628 47 5/125 8/179 34.63 2.25 92.3 1 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Yasir Shah (PAK) 2016-2020 16 26 3924 2534 46 6/72 10/141 55.08 3.87 85.3 2 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
JG Bracewell (NZ) 1980-1990 18 31 3806 1665 45 4/38 6/168 37.00 2.62 84.5 0 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DA Allen (ENG) 1963-1966 12 21 4273 1333 44 5/41 7/140 30.29 1.87 97.1 2 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Abdul Qadir (PAK) 1982-1989 16 25 4525 2109 43 7/96 10/211 49.04 2.79 105.2 3 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
GP Swann (ENG) 2009-2013 12 23 3429 1816 43 5/54 9/164 42.23 3.17 79.7 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif

 

 

Home or Away , Asia - He is ATG for sure, along side Murali

 

Home or away home venue  or away (home of opposition)
Host country Bangladesh  or India  or Pakistan  or Sri Lanka  or United Arab Emirates 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler
Ordered by wickets taken (descending)
Page 1 of 14 Showing 1 - 50 of 652        
Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
M Muralitharan (SL) 1992-2010 97 171 32563 13276 612 9/51 13/115 21.69 2.44 53.2 52 17 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
A Kumble (INDIA) 1993-2008 82 144 25711 11315 419 10/74 14/149 27.00 2.64 61.3 27 7 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Ashwin (INDIA) 2011-2022 57 111 16298 7433 349 7/59 13/140 21.29 2.73 46.6 28 7 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
HMRKB Herath (SL) 1999-2018 60 111 16969 8069 314 9/127 14/184 25.69 2.85 54.0 27 7 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA) 1998-2015 71 130 20584 9605 300 8/84 15/217 32.01 2.79 68.6 19 5 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RA Jadeja (INDIA) 2012-2022 37 73 10013 3865 184 7/48 10/154 21.00 2.31 54.4 9 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Abdul Qadir (PAK) 1977-1990 48 80 11625 5095 179 9/56 13/101 28.46 2.62 64.9 12 4 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Danish Kaneria (PAK) 2000-2009 36 65 10794 5392 168 7/77 12/94 32.09 2.99 64.2 10 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Shakib Al Hasan (BAN) 2007-2021 43 72 9949 5051 153 7/36 10/124 33.01 3.04 65.0 13 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA) 1964-1979 35 59 9761 4318 150 8/79 11/235 28.78 2.65 65.0 8 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
BS Bedi (INDIA) 1966-1979 33 60 11219 3736 143 7/98 9/70 26.12 1.99 78.4 8 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Iqbal Qasim (PAK) 1977-1988 39 67 10595 3774 140 7/49 11/118 26.95 2.13 75.6 8 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
MDK Perera (SL) 2014-2021 32 59 8349 4479 131 6/32 10/78 34.19 3.21 63.7 7 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Taijul Islam (BAN) 2014-2021 30 52 8053 4038 131 8/39 11/170 30.82 3.00 61.4 8 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK) 1995-2004 26 48 7711 3362 122 8/164 10/187 27.55 2.61 63.2 10 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
MH Mankad (INDIA) 1948-1959 28 47 9347 3132 115 8/52 13/131 27.23 2.01 81.2 5 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
PP Ojha (INDIA) 2009-2013 24 48 7633 3420 113 6/47 10/89 30.26 2.68 67.5 7 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
SP Gupte (INDIA) 1951-1961 26 45 8109 3025 105 9/102 10/223 28.80 2.23 77.2 9 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
SK Warne (AUS) 1992-2006 22 40 5943 3064 100 6/125 10/155 30.64 3.09 59.4 9 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
EAS Prasanna (INDIA) 1962-1978 24 44 7179 2811 97 6/74 10/174 28.97 2.34 74.0 5 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DL Vettori (NZ) 1998-2010 20 32 6593 2780 96 6/28 12/170 28.95 2.52 68.6 8 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
S Venkataraghavan (INDIA) 1965-1983 32 55 8275 2881 94 8/72 12/152 30.64 2.08 88.0 2 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Mehidy Hasan Miraz (BAN) 2016-2021 22 37 5347 2751 90 7/58 12/117 30.56 3.08 59.4 6 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Mohammad Rafique (BAN) 2000-2008 26 39 7196 3277 89 6/77 9/160 36.82 2.73 80.8 7 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Mushtaq Ahmed (PAK) 1990-2003 28 49 6218 3166 88 6/84 10/106 35.97 3.05 70.6 4 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RJ Shastri (INDIA) 1981-1990 49 75 9433 3662 86 5/75 5/75 42.58 2.32 109.6 1 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DR Doshi (INDIA) 1979-1983 25 42 6465 2443 85 6/103 8/103 28.74 2.26 76.0 5 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Tauseef Ahmed (PAK) 1980-1993 28 48 6211 2360 82 6/45 9/77 28.78 2.27 75.7 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
NM Lyon (AUS) 2011-2022 16 31 4525 2397 81 8/50 13/154 29.59 3.17 55.8 7 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
NS Yadav (INDIA) 1979-1987 29 50 6327 2822 78 5/76 7/81 36.17 2.67 81.1 2 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
ST Jayasuriya (SL) 1991-2007 75 98 6055 2457 77 5/34 9/74 31.90 2.43 78.6 2 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Intikhab Alam (PAK) 1959-1976 24 41 6037 2384 76 5/91 10/182 31.36 2.36 79.4 2 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Maninder Singh (INDIA) 1982-1993 29 44 7026 2909 74 7/27 10/107 39.31 2.48 94.9 3 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
SLV Raju (INDIA) 1990-2001 17 32 4752 1825 73 6/12 11/125 25.00 2.30 65.0 5 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DL Underwood (ENG) 1969-1982 22 38 5762 1946 73 5/28 9/173 26.65 2.02 78.9 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Benaud (AUS) 1956-1960 12 23 4399 1372 71 7/72 11/105 19.32 1.87 61.9 6 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
BAW Mendis (SL) 2008-2014 18 30 4604 2368 69 6/99 10/209 34.31 3.08 66.7 4 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
A Mishra (INDIA) 2008-2016 17 32 4037 2050 63 5/71 7/72 32.53 3.04 64.0 1 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
GP Swann (ENG) 2008-2012 10 19 3313 1570 60 6/82 10/181 26.16 2.84 55.2 5 2 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
HDPK Dharmasena (SL) 1993-2004 22 38 5166 2161 56 6/72 8/183 38.58 2.50 92.2 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
SA Durani (INDIA) 1960-1973 21 35 4704 1896 55 6/73 10/177 34.47 2.41 85.5 3 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
LR Gibbs (WI) 1958-1975 14 28 4246 1302 54 7/98 9/143 24.11 1.83 78.6 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Ghulam Ahmed (INDIA) 1948-1959 18 30 4540 1681 53 7/49 10/130 31.71 2.22 85.6 3 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RG Nadkarni (INDIA) 1955-1966 25 40 5573 1477 53 6/91 11/122 27.86 1.59 105.1 3 1 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
AF Giles (ENG) 2000-2005 15 26 4339 1815 52 5/67 8/132 34.90 2.50 83.4 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Yasir Shah (PAK) 2015-2021 9 18 2604 1315 48 7/76 9/155 27.39 3.02 54.2 3 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
MM Ali (ENG) 2016-2021 11 20 2688 1568 47 5/57 8/137 33.36 3.50 57.1 1 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Saeed Ajmal (PAK) 2009-2014 10 20 3218 1464 47 5/146 7/193 31.14 2.72 68.4 2 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
MJ Leach (ENG) 2018-2021 9 17 2487 1257 46 5/83 8/153 27.32 3.03 54.0 2 0 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
ND Hirwani (INDIA) 1988-1996 8 13 1757 748 45 8/61 16/136 16.62 2.55 39.0 4 1

http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif

 

 

 

 

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zen Grand Master

zen

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Serpico said:

@zen, please consider posting screenshots of statsguru. Direct copy paste is really hard to navigate on mobile 


I have not posted stats here (not stats are required here) :hmmmm2: … Also when post stats, I  tidy them presentable by removing unnecessary links

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AuxiliA Veteran

AuxiliA

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Majestic said:

5 fers in SENA conditions:-

 

Chandra - 6

Bedi - 5

Kumble - 5

Prasanna - 4

Harbhajan - 3

Mankad - 2

Jadeja - 1

Kuldeep - 1

Shastri - 1

Ashwin - 0

 

:((:((:((

 

Ashwin and Jadeja would have more fifers if the current pace attack hadn't been taking most of the wickets. Not their fault that we have a really good pace attack now. 

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Majestic Grand Master

Majestic

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, AuxiliA said:

 

Ashwin and Jadeja would have more fifers if the current pace attack hadn't been taking most of the wickets. Not their fault that we have a really good pace attack now. 

Yes, they are the first two spinners in the history of the game to have a really good pace attack. No spinner ever had a good pace attack which is why only these guys don't have the ability to take 5-fers. Quite hillarious.

 

Ashwin has always shown inability to pick 5-fers and in reality, to even win his side tests overseas in SENA conditions. That is actually the well known fact.

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vvvslaxman Grand Master

vvvslaxman

Posted
Posted (edited)

I am not sure why we are using SENA as a filter to judge our spinners from the 70s. Zaheer Abbas literally destroyed them to oblivion except Chandra. Infact Zaheer himself admitted he had trouble picking him so Miandad was the one who faced him the most.  Bhajji/Kumbl both were exposed by Pakistan even in India. They couldn't break a partnership whole of 5th day. Atleast Kumble has done very well.   May be this blind filtering across 5 decides don't incude contex.t Now you have  Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Ishant 4 seamers bowling bulk of overs and spinners are being used to hold one end up mostly.  It was a reverse case in the 70s. Seamers would be there just to open the bowling before spinners taking over. India never had a seamer dominated bowling attack until the last 5 or 6 years.

 

With WHITE FILTERING (SENA) we are discrediting spinners. Understand it is applicable for seamers and batsmen. But spinners? What is the big difference? One averages 35 other one averages 41. Both are bad. It is not like anyone averages 25.

Edited by vvvslaxman
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Jay Grand Master

Jay

Posted
Posted (edited)

Anderson has a few match winning spells in Asia. Ash doesn't in sena. But it's not ash's fault india have the goat Asian pace attack since 2015 though. We never had this calibre of pace attack before. Relentless pace and accuracy. There is no remorse. Aussie fans here enjoy watching bumrah shami bowl. Never used to be the case back in the days. Ashwin was instrumental vs Aussies twice. Not his fault everyone played well. I am ok with people not labelling him as ATG but don't say Waqar is an ATG then lol. Averages 70 and 40 in India and Australia. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jay
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vvvslaxman Grand Master

vvvslaxman

Posted
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Jay said:

Anderson has a few match winning spells in Asia. Ash doesn't in sena. But it's not ash's fault india have the goat Asian pace attack since 2015 though. We never had this calibre of pace attack before. Relentless pace and accuracy. There is no remorse. Aussie fans here enjoy watching bumrah shami bowl. Never used to be the case back in the days. Ashwin was instrumental vs Aussies twice. Not his fault everyone played well. I am ok with people not labelling him as ATG but don't say Waqar is an ATG then lol. Averages 70 and 40 in India and Australia. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All the Indian spinners had terrible record against West Indies in the 80s except Hirwani who had an average of 21 in 2 tests owing largely to his freak debut test on a mine field. This SENA filter will exclude those innocuous performances. Same way Kumble averages 42 in pakistan 44 in Srilanka. In Similar Indian conditions he averages 24 Bangladesh 16.53.  If we start dissecting in to performances against all countries we will realize nobody is ATG. As a package he is definitely right up there. With bat/ball. That is the reason why he has won like 8 man of the series.

 

 

Edited by vvvslaxman
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Majestic Grand Master

Majestic

Posted
Posted

Ashwin would have done poorly had he played vs Pakistan on usual flat subcontinent pitches or had he faced the peak version of Sanath, Mahela, Sanga and de Silva on traditional flat wickets in SC. It is a no brainer. He went for 150 runs for 3 wickets in Chennai Test too.

 

All in all, Ashwin is in same league as Kumble and Bedi but latter two have more standout performances overseas than Ashwin has.

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vvvslaxman Grand Master

vvvslaxman

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Majestic said:

Ashwin would have done poorly had he played vs Pakistan on usual flat subcontinent pitches or had he faced the peak version of Sanath, Mahela, Sanga and de Silva on traditional flat wickets in SC. It is a no brainer. He went for 150 runs for 3 wickets in Chennai Test too.

 

All in all, Ashwin is in same league as Kumble and Bedi but latter two have more standout performances overseas than Ashwin has.

 

Bedi overseas in 70s is not the same Ashwin overseas in 2010s. There is ocean of difference. Different set of players, conditions, strategy, ability, approach, team combination, familiarity. In SENA countries India predominantly relies on seamers. that has been the case for the last 7 or 8 years.  Kumble had one sena fifer that too against the new test entrants SOuth Africa in the first 13 years. Most of his SENA achievements were in the later part of his career from 2003 onwards.   That too only one fifer resulted in win.  He took 5 for 154 only match where India won. Dravid and Agarkar were the key in that match.  Kumble achieved a lot. But mostly at home like Ashwin. Among all the oldie spinners Chandra is the only one guy who i rate as someone who is likely to perform across the decades overseas due to his quirky action. You also have to consider the fact how over-exposed current crop of bowlers are. IPL, T20, ODI, Tests.  Australians/New zealanders/English/South Africans regularly come here and play spinners in India.  Back in the days there was not much challenge for spinners in ENA since there was no south africa. They didn't have to bowl to RG Pollock, Barry Richards.  A teenager named Vengsarkar demolished both Bedi and Prasanna in the Irani Trophy when they were at their peak.

 

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Jay Grand Master

Jay

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Pacers have bouncy pitches and seaming pitches. Spinners only have turners. So judge both on flat wickets. Ashwin is as good as Anderson on dead wickets. So to conclude, if Anderson is an ATG then ash should be in contention too. Also if a phattu like wackqar is an aTG then I have no problem with ash being an ATG. Wackqar the can fodder has an average of 70 and 47 vs India and Australia. He sucks on any kind of flat wicket. All his wickets were pre 1994. Go look it up on pakpassion itself. Their own people posted about how overrated he is Lel. All his wickets were during a time when Pakistan were notorious for tampering with the ball, biased umpiring allegations and all other forms of cheating. 

 

 

Edited by Jay
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