132/6 beginning from over 24 to end of 45? Acceptable?

[Nikhil_cric]

Going at 6 RPO may have been alright usually but was that performance under par given the pitch, dimensions and outfield? 

[sandeep]

7 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Going at 6 RPO may have been alright usually but was that performance under par given the pitch, dimensions and outfield? 

Ishan, Virat, Sky and Sundar all fell in quick succession.  

 

Performance was cumulatively below expectations but this is to be expected.  Will copy paste my post from match thread....

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

 

Its not unreasonable to expect better performance than the 385 we put up.  And yes, given the start, that was well within reach.  

 

The thing is, to bat like that, isn't some magic switch that batsmen can simply flip.  Batsmen have 'default' batting tempos and scoring rates - And what India needs is for their top 5 batting unit to raise this default tempo, so that they are habituated into delivering 8 RPO in the middle 30 over phase with 4 outfielders - not just in the one off game, but regularly.  They have been behind the tactical curve in this aspect for few years now.  What I see over the last few months, is finally the belated attempt to try and attempt this.  It would be unrealistic to expect consistent results right away.  

 

This is why I had been moaning and crying for more self-less batting in the top 4 for 4+ years.  Because it takes years and dozens of games like this to 'practice' and evolve your batting methods to fit this approach.  Its not an overnight thing.  

 

And yes, Virat "failed" today to put up a great score, but for me, I loved his innings.  Because his individual outcome is secondary to me.  What matters more to me is the batting method that he applied and attempted.  So I rate today's innings by Virat higher than one of his recent meaningless SL century - although you also have to acknowledge that at a personal level, Virat needed that century under his belt to be able to bat like he did today.

 

 

TL;DR - a team and a batting unit has to "learn" how to construct 400+ totals.  Just because you get a great start and get halfway there at the halfway over mark, doesn't automatically guarantee you'll get to 400+.  As we saw today - on a flat track with fast outfield, 400 is not something you get on a platter.   

 

So all in all, even though 385 is a sub-optimal outcome, I'm somewhat satisfied with it because I saw 2 effective innings from our middle order today - Virat and Pandya.  Again, let me stress, neither was anything "awesome" - both could and should have done better.  But I'm cautiously optimistic that they applied the correct method in the correct match context.   

 

Pandya clearly needs to work a bit on his success rate as a hitter - in his attempts to be the lower middle order shepherd, he seems to have lost a bit of his scoring and powerhitting zip.  So that's an issue - But these are the kinds of minor things that you trust a team and player to work out.  His body of work shows ample evidence that the capability is there somewhere.  Its the mix of shot selection, innings tempo recipe that he needs to figure out and improve upon.  

 

Now if you want to sit there and just moan away, wHy hE nOt sCoRe 80 iN 40 bAlLs.  Feel free.  I'm done reading the Bhaagvat Gita to a Buffalo.

 

[Number]

Failures of Kohli-Ishant-SKY did hurt us today. 

Kishan is not a middle order bat and SKY is still figuring out his ODI game.

What we missed  is Jadeja. An experienced player at no. 7 would have still gotten us over 400-425 range.

I like Sundar but he is not a no. 7 batsman, at least at the moment.

[Nikhil_cric]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Ishan, Virat, Sky and Sundar all fell in quick succession.  

 

Performance was cumulatively below expectations but this is to be expected.  Will copy paste my post from match thread....

 

I agree with what you say about Virat. For me the issue was Ishans lack of intent. He is usually a very selfless batter but he seemed a bit cowed today and I feel we lost some crucial momentum when he could not even take on a positive match up in Santner. Maybe Washi too when he was batting. 

[sandeep]

Just now, Nikhil_cric said:

I agree with what you say about Virat. For me the issue was Ishans lack of intent. He is usually a very selfless batter but he seemed a bit cowed today and I feel we lost some crucial momentum when he could not even take on a positive match up in Santner. Maybe Washi too when he was batting. 

I think he was caught between attacking and 'getting himself in'.  It happens.  But yes, Ishan has shown that he does struggle in adapting to match situations.  He's more comfortable being just unleashed - and even then he's not the most consistent.  So there's a question mark there, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Washi - he was also out of his comfort zone, and yes I am disappointed with his results because I think very highly of him and expect a lot from him.  

[Majestic]

Kishan doesn't suit at 4. Surya should have done better. At 5, he is now getting his chances but he probably needs to learn how to build innings, that's something which Iyer is very good at.

[nevada]

I thought SKY would play a big innings today but he felled to do so. Washie was again disappointing. We badly missed Iyer. 

[sandeep]

At this point, even though Sky's boundary hitting is so seductive, and I'm not a big fan of Iyer - you have to credit Iyer's temperament, and his consistency.  For the WC best XI its probably a straight shoot-out between Surya and Shreyas.  And as of now, its not a close call - Shreyas ranks ahead of Surya as an ODI bat, and comfortably so.

[Chakdephatte]

15 minutes ago, sandeep said:

At this point, even though Sky's boundary hitting is so seductive, and I'm not a big fan of Iyer - you have to credit Iyer's temperament, and his consistency.  For the WC best XI its probably a straight shoot-out between Surya and Shreyas.  And as of now, its not a close call - Shreyas ranks ahead of Surya as an ODI bat, and comfortably so.

 

In that case, Iyer should bat above Kohli. 

[sandeep]

13 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

In that case, Iyer should bat above Kohli. 

Iyer's game isn't solid enough to bat #3 because he isn't good enough against the new ball. 

 

Batting order should not be a static "order" but more driven of which over # we are in.  If 1st wicket falls after 20 overs, yes Iyer should bat ahead of Virat potentially. But the cost-benefit argument is not overly strong, and senioritis means Virat will stay at #3 by default.  

 

[prudent_kreeda]

23 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I agree with what you say about Virat. For me the issue was Ishans lack of intent. He is usually a very selfless batter but he seemed a bit cowed today and I feel we lost some crucial momentum when he could not even take on a positive match up in Santner. Maybe Washi too when he was batting. 

 

Stats show Ishan in MO has highest  number of dot balls against spinners in T20 /IPL  . His game is dot balls or boundaries /Sixes .

This is the problem in his game now in MO .When he comes to bat in MO in ODIs also, situation is similar to T20 most of the time .The same game pattern of his T20 is seen in ODI. 

Shreyas & KL may be front runners for MO spot . May be for that one extra spot ,they should test SKY & Patidar  as both can play spin well and are MO players.  

Preference to Ishan is due to being a leftie in Pant's absence .  TM would well to pick best players rather than leftie -rightie match up. 

 

[zen]

132 if a team loses 6 wkts is not necessarily bad. In team sports, things do not usually go linearly, which can be like expecting a team to score 2 goals in a soccer game because it scored 1 in the first half. Teams can score 3 goals in the last 15 mins too or not score any goal at all in the 2nd half. 
 

However, Ind does have structural problems - like it should have had Kishan open. The two senior batsmen line up to bat in the top order to stats pad in the bilaterals. 
 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by zen

[BacktoCricaddict]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

I think he was caught between attacking and 'getting himself in'.  It happens.  But yes, Ishan has shown that he does struggle in adapting to match situations.  He's more comfortable being just unleashed - and even then he's not the most consistent.  So there's a question mark there, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Washi - he was also out of his comfort zone, and yes I am disappointed with his results because I think very highly of him and expect a lot from him.  

 

For now, I think very highly of him as a test guy.  He can find his way into the LOI top order in a few years, but I would love to see him rejuvenate his test career.  A dream Gabba debut followed by some gutsy batting against Eng incl a 96* .... dude is made for tests. 

[Strangering]

Surya should have come at #3 as a pinch hitter. Why do we need a static line up? If the first wicket falls after 20 overs, Kohli should come down the order. Cricket is going to be all about momentum going forward. 

[sandeep]

16 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

For now, I think very highly of him as a test guy.  He can find his way into the LOI top order in a few years, but I would love to see him rejuvenate his test career.  A dream Gabba debut followed by some gutsy batting against Eng incl a 96* .... dude is made for tests. 

For me, he's an automatic selection as test #6 batsman if we are playing one, and a #5 bat as often as possible in ODI cricket.   He's trying to strengthen his power hitting game for the #6/7 slot which is really not his core competency.  There's obvious incentives for him to do that, because it will help him increase his T20 value as well.  But from a skillset point of view, he's best suited to #4 or #5.  I rate his batting skill very highly, along with temperament.  He can be Indian version of Steve Smith who started as a bowler but ended up being a fixture as a specialist bat.  That's his potential ceiling for me.  But I think his bowling will retain value especially in white ball cricket, far more than Steve.  

 

In my best case ODI XI - assuming Shreyas is not available, I will slot Washi in ahead of Pandya and Sky.  Or if Shreyas makes the team ahead of Sky, I'd still consider slotting Washi in bilateral games like these ahead of Shreyas and Pandya.  Let the boy have 5-7 games at #4 and see how he does, come the WC we can revert back to Shreyas ahead of him, but then we'll have the benefit of having a guy like Washi at #6 who has had the chance to practice building innings in ODIs for 20+ overs, instead of simply trying to throw his bat around in the last few overs.   That's how I'd like to see India strengthen its bat-deep. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

35 minutes ago, sandeep said:

For me, he's an automatic selection as test #6 batsman if we are playing one, and a #5 bat as often as possible in ODI cricket.   He's trying to strengthen his power hitting game for the #6/7 slot which is really not his core competency.  There's obvious incentives for him to do that, because it will help him increase his T20 value as well.  But from a skillset point of view, he's best suited to #4 or #5.  I rate his batting skill very highly, along with temperament.  He can be Indian version of Steve Smith who started as a bowler but ended up being a fixture as a specialist bat.  That's his potential ceiling for me.  But I think his bowling will retain value especially in white ball cricket, far more than Steve.  

 

 

I have had this discussion here on ICF with others. To me, he is good enough to be a top-order bat in tests.  Him and Gill opening in tests would be solid. 

[Lone Wolf]

Kishan is not secure of his spot...  Unlucky today but a opportunity lost.  We saw what he did to a better South African bowling attack. 

Looked under pressure behind the stumps today as well.  Contrast to how he started the series when he was flying around. 

 

SKY needs to cut down glamour shots at least in ODIs...  Trust his power more. 

[neel roy]

6 hours ago, sandeep said:

At this point, even though Sky's boundary hitting is so seductive, and I'm not a big fan of Iyer - you have to credit Iyer's temperament, and his consistency.  For the WC best XI its probably a straight shoot-out between Surya and Shreyas.  And as of now, its not a close call - Shreyas ranks ahead of Surya as an ODI bat, and comfortably so.

At no 4 we now have choice between Surya Kumar Yadav and  Shreyas Iyer. 

At no 4 we HAD choice between Vijay Shanker and Ambatti Rayudu ( 2019)

yaad aaya kuch

 

Now the worst thing is the choice we have now was also available in 2019. Just the selectors didnt give a crap to test these two guys out.. remember they were still firing in IPL

Edited January 24, 2023 by neel roy

[SRT100]

I can see in a WC final be it QF, SF or Final, India losing 2-3 early wickets and absolute panic set in and the team get rolled over.

 

India is actually in very poor form, contrary to the ODI results of late. Rohit has form choking in tournaments, Kohli I dont believe has ever been back in form and everything is so reliant on Gill clicking.

 

Our middle order has not had proper exposure and preparation for the WC tournament.

 

Last night, I felt Kishan, Pandya or SKY should have come in ahead of Kohli.

[Vilander]

132/6 beginning from over 24 to end of 45? Acceptable?

 

how can you put so many words together without forming a sentence ? not acceptable actually.

 

finally it has happened i have fallen out of being a cricket fan. I can not understand the topic or the context of responses. dang.