What has Ben Stokes done in test matches outside England as an all-rounder?

[vvvslaxman]

34 minutes ago, Texan said:

If you judge by traditional statistics, he is not really a great player, barely above average.

 

What he brings to the table are his clutch performances

Match winning innings in a World Cup final

Match winning century and historic last wicket stand in an Ashes test

Match winning T20 final innings.

 

Match losing 20th over lol

[Texan]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Match losing 20th over lol

I think he more than compensated for it with his other achievements. 

[Muloghonto]

Bigger question is, what has Ben stokes done to be called an allrounder in the first place ?

He has taken 2 wickets per match at 30+ while scoring runs at basically mid-30s average ? Thats basically a Ravi Shastri. Hardly an allrounder IMO, more like a batsman who is a very good 5th bowler. 

 

To me, an Allrounder is one who can bat in the top-6 in tests ( or if you have a genuine 40+ averaging wicketkeeper, bat at #7 in tests) **AND** figure in the top 4 bowlers of his side. Stokes, like Sastri, doesn't fill both the criterias like a Chris Cairns/Andrew Flintoff/Kapil Dev/Imran/botham, Kallis, etc. could do. My only exception to this rule would be Pollock, as he could've been a regular #7 if the South Africans had a good enough wicketkeeper to be #6 but then again, Pollock & Kallis intersected so much that you dont need Pollock to be in the top 7- you can make him 8th batter and STILL get 5 bowler attack lineup. 

Ben Stokes is basically in the high end of 'almost allrounder' to me, like Ravi Shastri, Sanath Jayasurya and Brian McMillan : who were decent/good batsmen and good enough to be the 5th bowler of the team but never the 4th/main frontline bowler. 
While one can argue that Kallis & Sobers are also the whole 'not true frontline bowler' guys in their playing capacity (they were mostly the 5th bowler in their playing days), they did play decent periods as the 4th bowler of the lineup ( in Kallis's case,often the 4th pacer and doing better than their spinners, in Sober's case he played extended periods as 3rd pacer) and were HoF batters who run circles around these types. 

 

Edited October 17, 2024 by Muloghonto

[Trichromatic]

7 hours ago, Texan said:

If you judge by traditional statistics, he is not really a great player, barely above average.

 

What he brings to the table are his clutch performances

Match winning innings in a World Cup final

Match winning century and historic last wicket stand in an Ashes test

Match winning T20 final innings.

I am trying to recall his performances outside England in test cricket.

[Texan]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

I am trying to recall his performances outside England in test cricket.

Its the hope of clutch performances when it matters and a fantastic captaincy record. He likely doesn't have too many decent recent great performances outside England otherwise. 

[Trichromatic]

45 minutes ago, Texan said:

Its the hope of clutch performances when it matters and a fantastic captaincy record. He likely doesn't have too many decent recent great performances outside England otherwise. 

 

Yeah, he played that Ashes knock in England after that every commentator or expert keep hyping his capability to play similar knock on turners of Asia or bouncy pitches of Australia when he won't even score a 50 when needed.

[Lord]

10 hours ago, Texan said:

If you judge by traditional statistics, he is not really a great player, barely above average.

 

What he brings to the table are his clutch performances

Match winning innings in a World Cup final

Match winning century and historic last wicket stand in an Ashes test

Match winning T20 final innings.

 

2 of those are at his home. Issue is his performance outside England

[Trichromatic]

16 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

2 of those are at his home. Issue is his performance outside England

 

And in test cricket.

 

Not sure why are posters brining ODI and T20Is when that's the topic of discussion.

[Gollum]

Minute he walks in to the XI, Eng looks so much weaker. 

 

Woakes is **** in SC conditions, but even he makes some impact with the new ball. And he has better technique against spin than Stokes. 

[Gollum]

33 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

And in test cricket.

 

Not sure why are posters brining ODI and T20Is when that's the topic of discussion.

He is the opposite of Jadeja.

 

Jaddu gets hate because of his poor white ball (esp. T20I) record, fans mix up formats and undermine his overall creds.

 

Stokes gets overrated because of his white ball exploits, and tbh Eng were never winning the 2019 or 2022 finals without his clutchness. 

 

Talking only about Indian fans, who mix formats all the time. 

 

Poms have their own agenda. 

[Chakdephatte]

11 hours ago, Texan said:

If you judge by traditional statistics, he is not really a great player, barely above average.

 

What he brings to the table are his clutch performances

Match winning innings in a World Cup final

Match winning century and historic last wicket stand in an Ashes test

Match winning T20 final innings.

 

And in 100 tests you can find 'clutch' innings by literally every batsman. Ashwin has more match changing performances with bat than him. Mirpur last year, Chepauk this year, saved Sydney test, legendary partnership with Saha in West Indies etc. He will still be remembered as a 'handy' rather than 'gun' batdman. 

 

 

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

Yeah, he played that Ashes knock in England after that every commentator or expert keep hyping his capability to play similar knock on turners of Asia or bouncy pitches of Australia when he won't even score a 50 when needed.

He was more consistent earlier. But this 'clutch' thing made him overrated. 

 

He has not played one meaningful knock in last two series in India. Unimportant matches I guess. 

[Stan AF]

16 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Match losing 20th over lol

Hahaha. Good one

[Number]

What a useless player outside England. So overrated based on a few good innings. 

Last year or so has totally exposed him.

[putrevus]

He has become a burden for their team. 

[Majestic]

A nothing cricketer outside his 2019 peak. Even Kohli is better than him, that tells you how mediocre he is. 

[Trichromatic]

Ben Stokes joins the team and all of a sudden Pakistan looks unbeatable.

[Vk1]

He won them two absolutely critical matches from certain defeat - lot of goats end careers without even one such performance.

[zen]

An article on Stokes in 2020:

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/where-does-ben-stokes-rank-among-the-top-allrounders-of-all-time-1228058

 

 

[Serpico]

3 hours ago, zen said:

An article on Stokes in 2020:

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/where-does-ben-stokes-rank-among-the-top-allrounders-of-all-time-1228058

 

 

Since this article dropped - 3 centuries and 47 wickets in 41 matches. Averaging 30 with bat (24, away from home) and 1 wicket per match with ball. Joe root might have been a better all-rounder for them in the last 4.5 yrs