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Who should bat at #4 in the WC?

Who should bat at #4 in the WC?  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. Who should bat at #4?

    • KL Rahul
    • Shankar
    • Dhoni
    • DK
      0
    • Floater position depending up the start

  • Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.
  • Poll closes on 05/31/2019 at 04:00 AM

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Basically, we have the following options:

 

  • KL Rahul (appears to be in the best form among the choices)
  • Shankar (but could be out of contention after a few games)
  • Dhoni (need to slot him somewhere)
  • DK (is in the squad so can be given the responsibility)
  • Turn it into a floater position depending upon the situation 

 

Whom would you start with esp. in the first 3 games? Discuss and vote! Poll closes on May 31st.  

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Virat Kohli.

 

Rohit, Shikhar, KLPD in the top 3, with clear instructions to attack the bowling in the 2 over to 10 over timeframe.  Even if one wicket falls.  Let KLPD come in at #3 if Brohit won't give up his opening slot.  Let Virat bat at #4.  

Unfortunately it is a risky gambit. We should have tried this approach before, I agree with your idea but applying it directly in a high-stakes match, dunno conflicted :dontknow:

Edited by Gollum

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1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Unfortunately it is a risky gambit. We should have tried this approach before, I agree with your idea but applying it directly in a high-stakes match, dunno conflicted :dontknow:

Wrote an ICF "article" suggesting this about 20 months ago.   

 

But Virat batting at #4 on a regular basis means probably 30% fewer chances to rack up meaningless centuries in meaningless ODIs.   Go check endorsement incomes and you will find that white ball top order batsmen - i.e. Kohli, Sharma and Dhawan - are right up there in maximum ad income.  You think these arseholes are going to give up the gravy train just so the team gets 5% better and increases the chances of winning the WC?  

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First three matches Shankar will play at 4. Being against tough opponenets in first three games, he will fail or fare just average in all three games.Virat will as usual lose patient and drop him and play DK at 4, who will rake up efficient 30 off 48 balls in one game and bottle up a big chase in the next game. Then Kohli drops him and he will play himself at 4 and include Rahul at 3 in two games. It will end like Mohali game where both not playing upto their potential and we will see Jadav at 4 Shankar at 6 in the next game then Dhoni at 4, Dk at 5, Shankar at 6 in the next.

 

All in all its going to be comedy gold in the wc with the middle order esp a inpatient captain at the helm.

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1 hour ago, Sonix768 said:

First three matches Shankar will play at 4. Being against tough opponenets in first three games, he will fail or fare just average in all three games.Virat will as usual lose patient and drop him and play DK at 4, who will rake up efficient 30 off 48 balls in one game and bottle up a big chase in the next game. Then Kohli drops him and he will play himself at 4 and include Rahul at 3 in two games. It will end like Mohali game where both not playing upto their potential and we will see Jadav at 4 Shankar at 6 in the next game then Dhoni at 4, Dk at 5, Shankar at 6 in the next.

 

All in all its going to be comedy gold in the wc with the middle order esp a inpatient captain at the helm.

I think KL Rahul will bat at no.4  But what you say cannot be ruled out. I would have kept Shankar as a back up options. Seeing the bowling of Pandya and Jadhav (found out) i don't trust these guys with 10 overs.

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It will be a mockery, if KL's role in the team is just to be a backup opener. Give him the position that he wants and let the senior players adjust to the different batting positions.

 

It's not like we have Morgan, Buttler and Stokes batting in the middle order, to afford a talent like him sit out from the playing X1.

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2 hours ago, R!TTER said:

What is Shankar's record @4 or Jadhav for that matter?

Overall Shankar averages below par 33 at strike rate of 96.49. Not upto the mark either in average or sr critria. His bowling is worse then Kedar Jadhav with bowling SR of 100. However  his fielding is much better than Jadhav.

 

Kedar Jadhave averages 43.48 with sr of 102.53 which is much better than that of Shankar. Also his bowling sr of  40.4 is miles better than Shankar.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Texan said:

What is KL Rahul's record at #4?

he has barely played 1-2 games at 4.  IN fact he has barely played 14 ODIs till now and i dont think he is picked to be a MO batsman.  he is perennial the back opener.

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36 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Overall Shankar averages below par 33 at strike rate of 96.49. Not upto the mark either in average or sr critria. His bowling is worse then Kedar Jadhav with bowling SR of 100. However  his fielding is much better than Jadhav.

 

Kedar Jadhave averages 43.48 with sr of 102.53 which is much better than that of Shankar. Also his bowling sr of  40.4 is miles better than Shankar.

 

 

Between the 2 Jadhav is definitely better with his record, but even he avg just 9 @4 & probably Shankar isn't much better. The point is VK is the best possible candidate to bat @4 given his record & the ability to rotate strike, not to mention this will make our middle order slightly better & shield him from the new ball. Needless to say Brat will not move down on his own, we'll see the same sorry affair play out this WC & blame most/all of it on Dhongi. Virat & the top 2 senior statesmen also share the blame, they've been sorry as *, selfish & contrived for a large part of the last few years. Not giving opportunity to others & see where they fit. Ganguly came down @3 for Sehwag, SRT @4 for WC 2007 & Dravid kept wickets in 2002-04 yet all these IPL billionaires are so *ing selfish that it makes me puke, especially Brat :whack2:

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23 hours ago, sandeep said:

Virat Kohli.

 

Rohit, Shikhar, KLPD in the top 3, with clear instructions to attack the bowling in the 2 over to 10 over timeframe.  Even if one wicket falls.  Let KLPD come in at #3 if Brohit won't give up his opening slot.  Let Virat bat at #4.  

Kohli has been doing perfectly fine at number 3. Why shuffle that around to fit another guy. Let the newbie play at 4. You technically want your best batsmen to bat at 3 anyways. Who better than Virat?

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1 hour ago, Zero_Unit said:

Kohli has been doing perfectly fine at number 3. Why shuffle that around to fit another guy. Let the newbie play at 4. You technically want your best batsmen to bat at 3 anyways. Who better than Virat?

Spoken like a fan with a 2011 understanding of ODI cricket.

 

Kohli is "doing fine" at being the ODI anchor.  He can continue to do just that at #4.  There is zero value in forcing Kohli to walk in to bat and face the new ball in the 1st 10 overs, instead of having another #3 who can take the responsibility and risk of scoring quickly in the powerplay.  "Shuffling" from #3 to #4 would require zero changes from Virat in how he approaches his batting, technically or tactically.  

 

Which dumbarse wise man decided that you want your best batsman at #3?  What you want, is the team to give itself the best chance to score maximum number of runs in 300 deliveries.  For India, that means adapting their batting tactics, to stop averaging 44 runs in the 1st 10 overs.  Virat is too good at being the anchor ODI bat, to risk him at #3 and ask him to bat aggressively upfront.  Let him do his thing at #4.  Insert KLPD at the top, and ask him to bat fearlessly.  Heck I would have wanted to see what Rishabh Pant would do as an opener, but that's a fantasy.  Even Rahul at the top is unlikely, because Mr 200-against-SriLanka isn't going to vacate his spot, and will continue to eat balls at 70 SR.  

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16 hours ago, Sonix768 said:

First three matches Shankar will play at 4. Being against tough opponenets in first three games, he will fail or fare just average in all three games.Virat will as usual lose patient and drop him and play DK at 4, who will rake up efficient 30 off 48 balls in one game and bottle up a big chase in the next game. Then Kohli drops him and he will play himself at 4 and include Rahul at 3 in two games. It will end like Mohali game where both not playing upto their potential and we will see Jadav at 4 Shankar at 6 in the next game then Dhoni at 4, Dk at 5, Shankar at 6 in the next.

 

All in all its going to be comedy gold in the wc with the middle order esp a inpatient captain at the helm.

Couldn’t have said it better . I will be surprised if this doesn’t happen 

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25 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Spoken like a fan with a 2011 understanding of ODI cricket.

 

Kohli is "doing fine" at being the ODI anchor.  He can continue to do just that at #4.  There is zero value in forcing Kohli to walk in to bat and face the new ball in the 1st 10 overs, instead of having another #3 who can take the responsibility and risk of scoring quickly in the powerplay.  "Shuffling" from #3 to #4 would require zero changes from Virat in how he approaches his batting, technically or tactically.  

 

Which dumbarse wise man decided that you want your best batsman at #3?  What you want, is the team to give itself the best chance to score maximum number of runs in 300 deliveries.  For India, that means adapting their batting tactics, to stop averaging 44 runs in the 1st 10 overs.  Virat is too good at being the anchor ODI bat, to risk him at #3 and ask him to bat aggressively upfront.  Let him do his thing at #4.  Insert KLPD at the top, and ask him to bat fearlessly.  Heck I would have wanted to see what Rishabh Pant would do as an opener, but that's a fantasy.  Even Rahul at the top is unlikely, because Mr 200-against-SriLanka isn't going to vacate his spot, and will continue to eat balls at 70 SR.  

Are you watching the IPL? If not just to inform you that Rahul has imbibed the "get set first and then go" culture of this Ind cricket team. Forget about the fearless starts from him as well.

Don't expect any thing out of the box from this methodical lineup

Edited by SK_IH

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31 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Spoken like a fan with a 2011 understanding of ODI cricket.

 

Kohli is "doing fine" at being the ODI anchor.  He can continue to do just that at #4.  There is zero value in forcing Kohli to walk in to bat and face the new ball in the 1st 10 overs, instead of having another #3 who can take the responsibility and risk of scoring quickly in the powerplay.  "Shuffling" from #3 to #4 would require zero changes from Virat in how he approaches his batting, technically or tactically.  

 

Which dumbarse wise man decided that you want your best batsman at #3?  What you want, is the team to give itself the best chance to score maximum number of runs in 300 deliveries.  For India, that means adapting their batting tactics, to stop averaging 44 runs in the 1st 10 overs.  Virat is too good at being the anchor ODI bat, to risk him at #3 and ask him to bat aggressively upfront.  Let him do his thing at #4.  Insert KLPD at the top, and ask him to bat fearlessly.  Heck I would have wanted to see what Rishabh Pant would do as an opener, but that's a fantasy.  Even Rahul at the top is unlikely, because Mr 200-against-SriLanka isn't going to vacate his spot, and will continue to eat balls at 70 SR.  

Too much IPL? Ever heard of the term of it ain't broke, don't tweak it? So you're biggest argument seems to be virat batting at #3 and Rahul at 4 will prevent us from getting 300 on a regular basis? 

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We play to our strengths and bank on experience without experimentation. Maharati Mahi at number 4 for me. Can play all roles at this position and vastly experienced. Shankar has a good technique but a number 4 should be capable of making a big score like old UV or Raina. I can't see this in Shankar or Kartik. They'll make 30-50 max. Rahul at number 4, he has never played there and having him at 3 and Kohli at 4 could risk Kohli coming in at 30-2. We want our best batsman Kohli to face as many balls as possible. 

 

My 11 from our squad for every match, must be consistent and back them all, shouldn't chop and change much. Can rotate BK/Chahal/Shankar depending on pitch - use Shankar as floater if selected. Sucks our tail can't bat much and I know Jaddu at 7 but we have to back him, he can rise to the occasion in all 3 departments - experience, skill, determination and fitness. I know I have chosen 5 bowlers but pitches in the UK (my home) are flat and dry as hell especially in summer so one less batsman shouldn't matter. And having better bowling options will help us limit team totals. Imagine our 5th bowler who must bowl 10 overs being Pandya and Jadhav ( latter is figured out) on these pitches along with Shankar - they will be smashed and should only bowl 5 overs combined at clever times not 10. 

 

We have to bank on our bowlers being incisive and our batting total being set up by the top 4. Chahal can be good but is mentally weak in critical moments, can't bat either. I'd choose Jaddu as he's consistently going to contribute in all 3 areas. Chahal should compete for the BK/Shankar spot if the pitch is very dry/non asian team.

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Dhoni (We know really he is the Captain and Wicket keeper)

Jadhav

Pandya

Jaddu

BK

Kuldeep

Shami

Bumrah

 

Edited by ViruDilSeKhelo

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22 hours ago, Zero_Unit said:

Too much IPL? Ever heard of the term of it ain't broke, don't tweak it? So you're biggest argument seems to be virat batting at #3 and Rahul at 4 will prevent us from getting 300 on a regular basis? 

IPL and ODIs are completely different games.   Go check what England's average ODI scores have been in games played in England over the last 2 years or so.  Compare that to average Indian ODI totals, especially batting first.  2010 called and left you a voicemail.  "Getting to 300" isn't good enough anymore. 


I don't care about Virat, Rahul, Pant, or any other name.  I want to see the Indian team - a team blessed with all-world batting talent resources, to produce top-shelf ODI team scores.  Indian batting unit is the undisputed best in the world at maximizing scoring in the middle overs - no small part thanks to Virat's consistent excellence.  But we are among the worst in the 1st 10 and middling in the last 10.  We are over dependent on Hardik Pandya for big hits at the end of an ODI innings.  Less said about Dhoni, the better.  Now, since we know that Indian team can't just pull out a Jos Buttler or Dre Rus out of their rear-end, let's see if its realistic to try and improve run-production in the 1st 10.  We average 45 runs in the 1st 10 overs.  That is as trash as it gets.  And its directly due to the "get your eye in, bat big" strategy, especially by the awesomely talented, but badly spoilt and over-indulged ball-eater Rohit Sharma. 

 

To me, we have plenty of batting resources who are capable of addressing this low-hanging fruit of a problem.  Instead of asking newbies to come in later in the innings, and "deliver" consistently with high strike rates, its far more realistic to expect someone like a KL Rahul, to come in and attack the bowlers in the 1st powerplay.   Let Kohli keep doing his kohli thing and own the middle overs.  

 

As a team, we are seriously under-achieving with the bat in ODI cricket.  And that's a shame.  India has 50% of the world's best ODI batsmen in the top 20, according to me.  And under-achieving as a batting unit, while being bailed out by the excellence of KulCha, Jaspreet and Bhuvi, is not acceptable to me.  To me, Indian batsmen are using the "bat big" tactic to pursue individual success, reasoning that its a low risk approach, and are getting consistently out-batted and out-scored by a bunch of sloggers (England) who have identified a tactical arbitrage opportunity, and are making the most of it.  England's ODI batsmen's collective batting tactics bring to mind the sucessful early adoption and execution of reverse swing by Pakistani bowlers in the 1990s.  Whether the reverse was aided by tampering the ball or not, Pak bowlers were at the vanguard of using reverse in ODI cricket.  They won a WC thanks to that first-mover advantage.  England's batting methodology may win them their first WC as well.  After 30 years of white-ball mediocrity, they have been the first to embrace the future of ODI batting.  And India are still playing as if the power-play rules haven't changed way back in 2013.  

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22 hours ago, SK_IH said:

Are you watching the IPL? If not just to inform you that Rahul has imbibed the "get set first and then go" culture of this Ind cricket team. Forget about the fearless starts from him as well.

Don't expect any thing out of the box from this methodical lineup

Rahul is doing that given his poor form in the run-up, and a slightly different role in the KXIP lineup.  

 

I do not expect this "methodical" lineup to do much, if anything out of the box.  Its not as if I have unreasonable expectations of winning the WC or anything - win or lose, what bothers me, is that the team is not putting its best foot forward in attempting to win.  For reasons, absent direct first-hand knowledge, appear to be non-cricket (i.e. $$$) based.  Call me a cynic, but I can see the game being played behind the game.  And its disappointing to the passionate fan within me.

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

IPL and ODIs are completely different games.   Go check what England's average ODI scores have been in games played in England over the last 2 years or so.  Compare that to average Indian ODI totals, especially batting first.  2010 called and left you a voicemail.  "Getting to 300" isn't good enough anymore. 


I don't care about Virat, Rahul, Pant, or any other name.  I want to see the Indian team - a team blessed with all-world batting talent resources, to produce top-shelf ODI team scores.  Indian batting unit is the undisputed best in the world at maximizing scoring in the middle overs - no small part thanks to Virat's consistent excellence.  But we are among the worst in the 1st 10 and middling in the last 10.  We are over dependent on Hardik Pandya for big hits at the end of an ODI innings.  Less said about Dhoni, the better.  Now, since we know that Indian team can't just pull out a Jos Buttler or Dre Rus out of their rear-end, let's see if its realistic to try and improve run-production in the 1st 10.  We average 45 runs in the 1st 10 overs.  That is as trash as it gets.  And its directly due to the "get your eye in, bat big" strategy, especially by the awesomely talented, but badly spoilt and over-indulged ball-eater Rohit Sharma. 

 

To me, we have plenty of batting resources who are capable of addressing this low-hanging fruit of a problem.  Instead of asking newbies to come in later in the innings, and "deliver" consistently with high strike rates, its far more realistic to expect someone like a KL Rahul, to come in and attack the bowlers in the 1st powerplay.   Let Kohli keep doing his kohli thing and own the middle overs.  

 

As a team, we are seriously under-achieving with the bat in ODI cricket.  And that's a shame.  India has 50% of the world's best ODI batsmen in the top 20, according to me.  And under-achieving as a batting unit, while being bailed out by the excellence of KulCha, Jaspreet and Bhuvi, is not acceptable to me.  To me, Indian batsmen are using the "bat big" tactic to pursue individual success, reasoning that its a low risk approach, and are getting consistently out-batted and out-scored by a bunch of sloggers (England) who have identified a tactical arbitrage opportunity, and are making the most of it.  England's ODI batsmen's collective batting tactics bring to mind the sucessful early adoption and execution of reverse swing by Pakistani bowlers in the 1990s.  Whether the reverse was aided by tampering the ball or not, Pak bowlers were at the vanguard of using reverse in ODI cricket.  They won a WC thanks to that first-mover advantage.  England's batting methodology may win them their first WC as well.  After 30 years of white-ball mediocrity, they have been the first to embrace the future of ODI batting.  And India are still playing as if the power-play rules haven't changed way back in 2013.  

Top post Sandeep.  Problem is Kohli experimented far too much in the middle and kept everyone on the edge. This made our middle order far too vulnerable. It is eerily similar to how he has been managing RCB batting. In a 20 over match with Gayle, ABDV, Baz, Watson, Kohli RCB batting still looked like they were missing more batting. It is a bit like that.  He never played a settled middle order. Even the ones he backed were absolute craps. To make matters worse we have one of the longest tail in the world cricket. Basically we have 4 batsmen in the back end who can't buy a run to save their life. THen 3 in the middle who don't have defined roles.1 in the middle has a role of tuktukking and taking to 50th over. Kohli made sure India is a top heavy team despite having plethora of talent in domestic cricket. A hack like Rayudu who was selfish all his career mysteriously had the backing of  everyone.  They invested in him far too much only to be left out. Shankar was not even in their plans an year back.  Pandya's absence helped SHankar immensely.  India's problem is they could never find the replacement for old Dhoni, Old Yuvi, Old Raina. Pandya is the closest. ALso no.4 is such a vital cog in the machine. They could never find anyone all these years thanks to impatient team selections from Kohli.  This team looks like either they will comprehensively or lose comprehensively.

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Now, since we know that Indian team can't just pull out a Jos Buttler or Dre Rus out of their rear-end, let's see if its realistic to try and improve run-production in the 1st 10.  We average 45 runs in the 1st 10 overs.  That is as trash as it gets.  And its directly due to the "get your eye in, bat big" strategy, especially by the awesomely talented, but badly spoilt and over-indulged ball-eater Rohit Sharma. 

How we do in PP would be one of the keys to our success esp. since it sets the tone for the game as well! 

Edited by zen

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

 

To me, we have plenty of batting resources who are capable of addressing this low-hanging fruit of a problem.  Instead of asking newbies to come in later in the innings, and "deliver" consistently with high strike rates, its far more realistic to expect someone like a KL Rahul, to come in and attack the bowlers in the 1st powerplay.   Let Kohli keep doing his kohli thing and own the middle overs.  

I donno what you're talking bout mate. Rahul ain't no attacking player from the get go. He too takes time to settle down. If he was a player who regularly played with a SR of 100 ish, fair game and fair point. But what's the point of Rahul at 3 when he will play the same role as Kohli was? If another Sehwag pops out in the near future, hallelujah! Problem solved.

 

We all share your feelings of us having world class batsmen in the dugout but not getting fair chances but that doesn't mean you go to worldcup and start tweaking. That's what preparation before the WC should have been about - try xyz at 3 and push Captain down to 4. Even a smallest tweak can sometimes off balance the team's rythm when not practiced in advanced.

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12 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

Matching eng with the bat is impossible,it will only get us into trouble.

+1  It is not a overnight thing. They have been doing that since 2015 world cup.  If you ask me mental strength is as much important in a world cup. Otherwise how can you explain their pathetic batting against Pakistan in the CT. They froze against spin and Hasan Ali. We just have to be at our best not England's best.  

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8037/scorecard/1022371/england-vs-pakistan-1st-semi-final-icc-champions-trophy-2017

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8 minutes ago, Zero_Unit said:

I donno what you're talking bout mate. Rahul ain't no attacking player from the get go. He too takes time to settle down. If he was a player who regularly played with a SR of 100 ish, fair game and fair point. But what's the point of Rahul at 3 when he will play the same role as Kohli was? If another Sehwag pops out in the near future, hallelujah! Problem solved.

 

We all share your feelings of us having world class batsmen in the dugout but not getting fair chances but that doesn't mean you go to worldcup and start tweaking. That's what preparation before the WC should have been about - try xyz at 3 and push Captain down to 4. Even a smallest tweak can sometimes off balance the team's rythm when not practiced in advanced.

Should try Kohli at 4 once in a warm up match. I would prefer to play Rahul as a floater. At No. 3 when a wicket goes within 15 overs. Otherwise Kohli at 3.

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8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

+1  It is not a overnight thing. They have been doing that since 2015 world cup.  If you ask me mental strength is as much important in a world cup. Otherwise how can you explain their pathetic batting against Pakistan in the CT. They froze against spin and Hasan Ali. We just have to be at our best not England's best.  

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8037/scorecard/1022371/england-vs-pakistan-1st-semi-final-icc-champions-trophy-2017

Also when their batsmen hit our bowlers then we have to hold our nerve,it will invariably happen in this wc,If we collapse under that onslaught then it will only get worse.

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