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maniac

India cap is not cheap- players like Dube devalue it

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We seem to induct  anyone and everyone in the team even if it is only the T20 format. 
 

Players have to come through a grind, u-19,FC,A and B teams and then maybe as a last criteria IPl.

 

These performances have to be taken on a weighted average.

 

Just because a player bowled a couple of 140k deliveries and hit a couple of slogs  doesn’t mean he is rewarded with the india cap. It is too sacred.

 

There are plenty of players who have worked hard, performed day in and out waiting on the wings and trash like this gets rewarded :wall:

 

Edited by maniac

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Just now, Vk1 said:

When half the players don't play most of the time due to injuries, rest and getting ready for IPL, you will see lot of second level players Ike khaleel, krunal, Dube etc..

Khaleel was atleast a u-19 Star. Same goes for Sundar Yes they might be mediocre but atleast May be benefit of doubt that selectors saw raw ability.

 

Krunal Pandya gets a free ride based on few IPL performances. Injustice to all those spinners who have toiled hard at every level and sure they can hack a few as well.

 

Dube too hasn’t done much to move ahead of the pecking order.

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3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Dube is primarily a batsman who bowls a bit.

 

He averages 48+ in FC cricket.

 

And has a SR of 140 in T20s.

 

And has performed in List A for India A.

 

He has come up the ranks with solid performances.

If you are telling me there is no better bat than Dube in domestics that is a scary thought.

 

As far as him rolling his arm over for 135+ for a couple of overs, that is no big deal.

 

Who would be easier to face, A Dinda bowling at 140 or Anderson bowling at 132-135 or even a Philander

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What fair chance. You are just thrown in for the sake of it because you fit a certain mould is not fair in my book. There is a system through which players come through the ranks.

 

India is not Pakistan that they give anyone a debut based on tailunt or Srilanka where everyone debuts because of the lack of resources.

Edited by maniac

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1 minute ago, maniac said:

What fair chance. You are just thrown in for the sake of it because you fit a certain mould is not fair in my book. There is a system through which players come through the ranks.

 

India is not Pakistan that they give anyone a debut based on tailunt or Srilanka where everyone debuts because of the lack of resources.

I think Nitish Rana is hard done. He deserves a look.  

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Just now, Real McCoy said:

India cap is not cheap? How come this guy got a look in?

 

 

He was a very good test player. Has a 200 vs aussies and dare I say leagues ahead of players like Dube and Pandya. Speaking in the context of the eras they played. Was a selfish cricketer but he had some epic performances in domestics and even at international cricket.

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3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Ppl want youngsters in team and then tehy also dont have patience for few games

No one complains when guys like Pant,Shaw,Gill or if Tomorrow guys like Abhishek Sharma, Mavi,Nagarkoti get a shot. 
 

Even Samson is fine.

 

As mediocre as Khaleel is, I was ok that he got a run or someone like Siraj.

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18 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

We are stuck with useless Dhawan In T20s for last 6-7 years and yet you are picking on a guy who was on debut today!

Dhawan is useless in T20s  but has been a star performer for india. He deserves is original shot at the Indian team.

 

Dube just walks in because he slogs a few and was measured bowling a few at 135ks with no skill.

 

Thats the difference.

 

Yes Dhawan needs to go as well.

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Just now, maniac said:

No one complains when guys like Pant,Shaw,Gill or if Tomorrow guys like Abhishek Sharma, Mavi,Nagarkoti get a shot. 
 

Even Samson is fine.

 

As mediocre as Khaleel is, I was ok that he got a run or someone like Siraj.

him being mediocre is ur opinion doesnt make a player actually that, if u give a chance to anyone be fair ateast

He did enough to earn his place - performed everywhere....cant judge on few balls on a pitch on which everyone was struggling for timing 

 

Pant, shaw, gill are top order batsman hence they look compact ....guys like dube have to play a diff game which why they may not look veyr pleasing but they are in team for a role not to please eyes

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2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Dhawan is useless in T20s  but has been a star performer for india. He deserves is original shot at the Indian team.

 

Dube just walks in because he slogs a few and was measured bowling a few at 135ks with no skill.

He didnt slog n walk  in 

he played very good knocks in Domestic , India-A 50 over n long format both winning team in tough situation

 

Slogging is what tailender does.....when u win ur team again n again in tough situations thats not blind slogging. 

 

 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

He didnt slog n walk  in 

he played very good knocks in Domestic , India-A 50 over n long format both winning team in tough situation

 

Slogging is what tailender does.....when u win ur team again n again in tough situations thats not blind slogging. 

 

 

Can you name the teams he performed against?

 

If there is no better player than Dube in the middle- lower middle order than sorry to say Indian cricket is heading for disaster 

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26 minutes ago, maniac said:

If you are telling me there is no better bat than Dube in domestics that is a scary thought.

 

What are the qualities needed to be a good No.6 batsman in LOIs. ?

 

Would a Shubman Gill or a Abhmanyu Easwaran fit this role ?

 

To be a good No. 6 or No.7  LOI batter ... the batsman needs to be

--  A big hitter with  ability to hit pacers too

--  A batter who can start hitting / scoring without taking too much time to get set.

--  A high SR batter

-- For No.6 batter ... Preferably have the ability to bowl a few decent overs and be the 6th bowler.

--  For No.7 batter ... Can be the 5th bowler who can bowl 8 to 10 decent overs.

--  For No.6 batter ... Preferably have a good FC batting average .

 

 

Dube ticks all the boxes to be a No.6 LOI  batsman.

 

Gill or Easwaran do not tick most of the boxes to be good No.6 LOI batters ... although they are very promising top order batsmen.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, maniac said:

As far as him rolling his arm over for 135+ for a couple of overs, that is no big deal.

 

Who would be easier to face, A Dinda bowling at 140 or Anderson bowling at 132-135 or even a Philander

 

Dube is not a 135 k+ bowler. He is a proper part timer trundler who often drops down to military medium pace.

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2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Can you name the teams he performed against?

In WI against WI A

Against SA-A

 

Both had good attacks 

Quote

 

If there is no better player than Dube in the middle- lower middle order than sorry to say Indian cricket is heading for disaster 

these are ur best Lower order hitting options- hardik, dube, DK, SKY

u have better let me knw.....we cant sit n cry that we dnt have symonds or russell (who himself failed in WC) .....we have to do with what we have

 

U have issues with hardik

U dnt want SKY

U dnt like Dube

DK can only perform in one situation n has no other skill

 

So Whats ur plan shud we play Shaw , mayank n gill at 6 n 7

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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1 minute ago, maniac said:

He was a very good test player. Has a 200 vs aussies and dare I say leagues ahead of players like Dube and Pandya. Speaking in the context of the eras they played. Was a selfish cricketer but he had some epic performances in domestics and even at international cricket.

He is not wearing white clothing in that clip. He is playing ODI cricket. That 200 came in a flat sydney pitch with some average bowling lineup that Aus had. Mcdermott was the only strike bowler they had back then and he is no Mcgrath. He received backing from Sunnyji and other mumbaikars in the team. You are on the throats of Dube even though this is the first time we have seen him in international colors. Give him a few innings and then judge.

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too harsh....his game in last 1 year has been good - he has succeeded against in A games against likes of Nortje - a seriously quick bowler albeit on Indian tracks. Looking at our lack of power hitters in middle and lower middle order, his selection makes sense...and even by Kohli's (inconsistent) standards, everyone deserves at least 5 matches before u dump them and officially say -->  :yousuck: 

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2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Dhawan is useless in T20s  but has been a star performer for india. He deserves is original shot at the Indian team.

 

Dube just walks in because he slogs a few and was measured bowling a few at 135ks with no skill.

 

Thats the difference.

 

Yes Dhawan needs to go as well.

In the last two seaons, Best all rounder in Ranji Trophy, Best all round performance for India A, Some unbelievable innings in VH trophy.

 

A proper six hitter, who is what we need in T20 side.

 

We seem to have already killed Rahul and Pant's attacking mindset, Kuldeep and Chahal have been blunted as well by this TM. Basically what we look for is Dhoni and Kohli type safety first T20 stars. That mindset has not won us a proper T20 WC, nor will it work in the future

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1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

What are the qualities needed to be a good No.6 batsman in LOIs. ?

 

Would a Shubman Gill or a Abhmanyu Easwaran fit this role ?

 

To be a good No. 6 or No.7  LOI batter ... the batsman needs to be

--  A big hitter with  ability to hit pacers too

--  A batter who can start hitting / scoring without taking too much time to get set.

--  A high SR batter

-- For No.6 batter ... Preferably have the ability to bowl a few decent overs and be the 6th bowler.

--  For No.7 batter ... Can be the 5th bowler who can bowl 8 to 10 decent overs.

--  For No.6 batter ... Preferably have a good FC batting average .

 

 

Dube ticks all the boxes to be a No.6 LOI  batsman.

 

Gill or Easwaran do not tick most of the boxes to be good No.6 LOI batters ... although they are very promising top order batsmen.

 

 

 

 

Dube is not a 135 k+ bowler. He is a proper part timer trundler who often drops down to military medium pace.

Bhai if you remember I am not critical of Dube today. I have been vocal of him getting a shot right when the team was announced.

 

From what I have seen of him he cannot play good quality pace. Yes it was only bangaldesh today but you think he is going to smack Starc,Cummins,Rabada, Boult etc for 6’s?

 

I have faith in someone like Samson taking them on or even Pant and Gill. 
 

Dube is a typical Indian ordinary spinners bully in the Atul Bedade mould 

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2 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

He is not wearing white clothing in that clip. He is playing ODI cricket. That 200 came in a flat sydney pitch with some average bowling lineup that Aus had. Mcdermott was the only strike bowler they had back then and he is no Mcgrath. He received backing from Sunnyji and other mumbaikars in the team. You are on the throats of Dube even though this is the first time we have seen him in international colors. Give him a few innings and then judge.

Man of the series 1985 World Series.

 

Are you saying Dube is a better player than Shastri?

 

why are we discussing him. I hate his personality and think he was an above average to average cricketer but it is false equivalence.

 

He is a better player as a cricketer than Dube for sure but not sure why this comparison?

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5 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

From what I have seen of him he cannot play good quality pace. Yes it was only bangaldesh today but you think he is going to smack Starc,Cummins,Rabada, Boult etc for 6’s?

Even i have that doubt but how will u knw unless u try.....surely we dont want to go back to dK or binny 

Infact i feel he ll struggle against them but i wud want him to get a fair chance coz he has qualities as well.....neways we dnt have enough options n he has earned it 

Quote

I have faith in someone like Samson taking them on or even Pant and Gill. 

 

all 3 cant bat in lower order

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Bhai if you remember I am not critical of Dube today. I have been vocal of him getting a shot right when the team was announced.

 

From what I have seen of him he cannot play good quality pace. Yes it was only bangaldesh today but you think he is going to smack Starc,Cummins,Rabada, Boult etc for 6’s?

 

I have faith in someone like Samson taking them on or even Pant and Gill. 
 

Dube is a typical Indian ordinary spinners bully in the Atul Bedade mould 

When most of his htting has been vs seamers! 

 

If hitting Starc, Cummins and Rabada  was used as the yardstick, not one of the current stars would have had a career.

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1 minute ago, Khota said:

Dube is another guy who does not belong but in all fairness one match is not enough.

Yes true. But the point is not his performance today. Just the pathway for players like this or Shankar getting in to the side. For the matter of fact even Pandya bros.

 

Though I think Hardik is the best of the lot which is not saying much. 

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2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Yes true. But the point is not his performance today. Just the pathway for players like this or Shankar getting in to the side. For the matter of fact even Pandya bros.

 

Though I think Hardik is the best of the lot which is not saying much. 

That really triggerd me. Anyone involved in the decision to cap Shankar right at that point in WC has no business setting foot on cricket field. That was ourageous decision. Sad thing is so many guys who know it all on ICF supported it.

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1 minute ago, maniac said:

Yes true. But the point is not his performance today. Just the pathway for players like this or Shankar getting in to the side. For the matter of fact even Pandya bros.

 

Though I think Hardik is the best of the lot which is not saying much. 

what wrong pathway.....they all came in perfoming in A -Sides

Shankar was the highest scorer in NZ-A series against their high quality bowlers-did well in NZ, Against aus in home series....only failed in 2 WC games

Hardik Also has performed in A games

Dube has performed in A games

 

What is the other pathway to get in team if not performing for A- games

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8 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

When most of his htting has been vs seamers! 

 

If hitting Starc, Cummins and Rabada  was used as the yardstick, not one of the current stars would have had a career.

Fair enough but our most successful batsmen in the lower order were guys like Raina,Yuvraj and Dhoni. One was a keeper whose batting was a bonus but the other 2 were proper batsman with a large body of work in domestics or u-19 and were identified early for those skills.

 

Not thrown in to the deep end based on a few cameos.

 

They had their flaws but they also had the ability to build an innings or go from ball 1.

 

If Dube was a proper batsman with some standout knocks at all levels and topped the charts in one category, sure his big hitting ability is a bonus.

 

Lets be honest his debut has been accelerated by the fact that he can bowl some seamers and has played some cameos.

Edited by maniac

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2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Fair enough but our most successful batsmen in the lower order were guys like Raina,Yuvraj and Dhoni. One was a keeper whose batting was a bonus but the other 2 were proper batsman with a large body of work in domestics or u-19 and were identified early for those skills.

Werent these 2 extremely inconsistent ...yuvraj was almost on the verge of being thrown out so many times. Dube wnt be as worse against pace as yuvi was against spin at start of his career

 

Raina was never consistent n struggled against pace himself 

 

Dhoni power game wasnt as good intially against such pacers at start of career specially overseas 

 

Dnt look at the stalwarts they became but also look at their struggling days

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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6 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

what wrong pathway.....they all came in perfoming in A -Sides

Shankar was the highest scorer in NZ-A series against their high quality bowlers-did well in NZ, Against aus in home series....only failed in 2 WC games

Hardik Also has performed in A games

Dube has performed in A games

 

What is the other pathway to get in team if not performing for A- games

Shankar had no internationa experience and he plays WC. You don't see anything wrong with that and I am very troubled with that statement.

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2 minutes ago, Khota said:

Shankar had no internationa experience and he plays WC. You don't see anything wrong with that and I am very troubled with that statement.

that was captain coach fault

They invested in guys like DK n rayudu who were proven failure n gave them all time.....when WC came close rayudu sucked big time n no option was left . TM is suppose to identify youngsters n gave them enough chances

Shankar was at right time right place n he perfomed in NZ n Aus series so it wasnt that he didnt perform n earn

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21 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

From what I have seen of him he cannot play good quality pace. Yes it was only bangaldesh today but you think he is going to smack Starc,Cummins,Rabada, Boult etc for 6’s?

 

I have faith in someone like Samson taking them on or even Pant and Gill. 
 

Dube is a typical Indian ordinary spinners bully in the Atul Bedade mould 

 

How do we know that he can't play good quality pace or, more importantly, does not have the ability to learn playing good quality pace with some exposure to such bowlers. ?

 

He was fiercely hitting pacers like Nortje and Dala in a couple of matches. These bowlers have pace but lack the experience just like Dube himself.  So, this is a good start.

 

Even Kohli looked like a fish out of water on his first test tour to the WI ... but he learned.

 

So, we have to see whether Dube is the improving or learning type or refuses to learn. Only time will tell.

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7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

So, we have to see whether Dube is the improving or learning type or refuses to learn. Only time will tell.

Neways guys like dube will never plays against quality of starc, cummins, rabaada in domestic......even failures wud make him better. When yuvi came in he was terrible against spinners but after 4-5 yrs he became better against them

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28 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

that was captain coach fault

They invested in guys like DK n rayudu who were proven failure n gave them all time.....when WC came close rayudu sucked big time n no option was left . TM is suppose to identify youngsters n gave them enough chances

Shankar was at right time right place n he perfomed in NZ n Aus series so it wasnt that he didnt perform n earn

Rayudu was an u-19 Star, performer in domestics, star performer in IPL, sure suspect against quality bowling and but did decently here and there. 
 

Everyone felt it was unfair the way he was dropped right before the WC. Like him or hate him the process was handled badly. 
 

He checks a lot more boxes than someone like Dube or Krunal Pandya or even Shankar

 

He made it through the right grind.

 

To some extent same goes for DK who was always nearly there but never been. 

Edited by maniac

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4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Neways guys like dube will never plays against quality of starc, cummins, rabaada in domestic......even failures wud make him better. When yuvi came in he was terrible against spinners but after 4-5 yrs he became better against them

We cannot wait for players to get good after 4-5 years because the last time India won T20i cup was in 2007? There are lot of players in this T20i team who have failed to carry on IPL performances in the tournaments that matter. The team is just not showing they can win significant tournament in T20 format. Individual performances are useless if team loses the tournament that matters.

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11 minutes ago, maniac said:

Rayudu was an u-19 Star, performer in domestics, star performer in IPL, sure suspect against quality bowling and but did decently here and there. 
 

Everyone felt it was unfair the way he was dropped right before the WC. Like him or hate him the process was handled badly. 

 

To select him back was idiotic on IPL ....specially it was already proven that he struggled against pace n bounce. If ppl on ICF figured that out m sure TM wud have to its just that kohli lives in present n wud have not learned that as he always does. Now when he started failing before wc it went against him n all those thoughts of his struggles against pace n bounce came back. His poor fielding didnt help. We had a thread which had a count of around 50 runs lost by rayudu in fielding only.....m sure TM had that data to

 

Kohli doesnt have patience for anyone so it was bound to happen .....Some players will n always be on thin ice like  rayudu , jadhav are n failing before the Wc was never going to be good for these guys. 

 

He shudnt have been bought back only

 

Quote


He checks a lot more boxes than someone like Dube or Krunal Pandya.

comparison makes no sense

 

Dube n pandya are considered for t20 .....Rayudu case was ODI

Krunal has already done well in alien conditions for his spin bowling like Aus, NZ WI....rayudu nemsis was overses 

Rayudu was a middle order batsman.....these guys plays as lower order batsman n all rounder

 

Rayudu shud be comapred to iyer n all

Dube n pandya to jaduu, binny n all 

Quote

 

He made it through the right grind.

Rayudu Performed in domestic, A games , ipl 

 

So have pandya bros....whats the difference 

Shankar ,Dube  have performed in domestic n A games 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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7 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

We cannot wait for players to get good after 4-5 years because the last time India won T20i cup was in 2007? There are lot of players in this T20i team who have failed to carry on IPL performances in the tournaments that matter. The team is just not showing they can win significant tournament in T20 format. Individual performances are useless if team loses the tournament that matters.

We can wait for few games atleast na.....lets do that . I have already stated that i have my doubts about dube batting but no matter what every player shud be given a fair run. 

 

Under kohli neways we wont Wc.....so i have left that hope long back.Whats important is that these youngsters settle in

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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no need of blaming Dubey it seems. Dhawan was the main culprit in the match. Even his T20 record is a bit off.  Mere  41  of 42 balls in a T20 is simply  not adequate of a well set batsman in this format. Others were all ok . Inexperienced players need time & will become good by playing more matches. 

And in T2Os  lower ranked teams have more chances of  winning against higher ranked teams. BAN's first win vs India too. So nothing to be worried. Happens.

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19 minutes ago, maniac said:

Rayudu was an u-19 Star, performer in domestics, star performer in IPL, sure suspect against quality bowling and but did decently here and there. 
 

Everyone felt it was unfair the way he was dropped right before the WC

Dube devalues the cap, while Rayudu was dropped "unfairly".  

 

And then this guy turns around and talks **** about Mumbai lobby.

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10 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

no need of blaming Dubey it seems. Dhawan was the main culprit in the match. Even his T20 record is a bit off.  Mere  41  of 42 balls in a T20 is simply  not adequate of a well set batsman in this format. Others were all ok . Inexperienced players need time & will become good by playing more matches. 

And in T2Os  lower ranked teams have more chances of  winning against higher ranked teams. BAN's first win vs India too. So nothing to be worried. Happens.

Dhawan and KLPD - 56 runs in 59 balls - that's about half of a T20 innings 10 overs, including powerplay.  

 

And morons will run around screaming and vomiting their frustrations at Dubey, Khaleel and Krunal.  Nobody's claiming that those guys are stars and blameless.  But today's game was lost with the bat.  By the top order.  Shreyas apart, the entire top order failed.  You can't win a game that way.  Sundar, Krunal and Iyer scored 51 runs in 26 balls.  If those guys hadn't chipped in, this game would have been lost by the 12th over.  

Edited by sandeep

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3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Dube devalues the cap, while Rayudu was dropped "unfairly".  

 

And then this guy turns around and talks **** about Mumbai lobby.

To add

Rayudu was legit bad against pace n bounce proved again n again

n the question is on Dube pace playing ability who hasn't even gotten a chance

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