Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[rtmohanlal]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

2003 Indian team was on a roll anyway and they were decimating every team bar Aussies and that was an expiry attack of Akram and Waqar on a patta pitch.  Centurian is infamous for being patta in ODIs. it was as patta as Mumbai 2011 Wankhede.  What happened in the final in 2003?  BY 2002, SRT had played 13 years of International cricket and it was not like he was regarded after 3 years and still only around 29 years of age.

2Ws and Shoaib are  ATG one day bowlers(neglecting tampering matter for now) .Waqar was ony 31 years & Shoaib was at his devastating best.Only Akram was around 36 y & 9 months. Even that can't be taken as a 'past by sell date' especially for a medium  pacer  in general  who more relied on his set  of various crafts rather than genuine  pace. To call that 'expiry' makes one scratch head.

And the opponent was  none other than Pakistan.It was the biggest of all stages.The man in concern was treated as some sort of messiah  by crores of emotional  ordinary fans  who  always expected him to do it for them.And it was not 'merely setting' a target, infact chasing a huge one.Take all these into account.

 

That's why I feel Kohli's real test will start  from now on wards. He has become the undisputed best of current generation.Till now his world cup record is very ordinary despite having to withstand very low pressure in general. Fans has started to treat him like they did with Sachin.Let us wait and see how he would meet with this enormous pressure of expectations.

[rtmohanlal]

5 hours ago, Cricketics said:

That was one of the greatest knocks by the greatest batsman then surely but that doesn’t make alone him stand out among the rest. Its my fav knock too and I can watch it agin and again, Tendulkar against top bowling attack.

 

But still when we put the whole thing into perspective, Kohli has reached a different peek all of a sudden and is creating his own name and will surpass Tendulkar when the actual numbers are in favor of Kohli, which currently aren’t due to him having not played enough. It wil be matter of time though.

 

 

 

yes...this is the main  point.Kohli has  reached a different peak & so too has his esteem in the minds of crores of people . How he moves on from here  would settle this debate.

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

temperament is dependent on the conditions & the basic nature  of the  scoring patterns in general that the  batsman  plays in.  That's why I feels that  if the target is very high in the range of 275+ - 350, Kohli is  better to Sachin in finishing off. On the other hand in  chasing difficult targets Sachin is  better  because of his   superior technique to combat lot more dangerous deliveries thru the inns.

For instance  go thru  the following score sheet.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8537/scorecard/65873/england-vs-india-1st-match-akai-singer-champions-trophy-1997-98

Top 6 baring Sachin  could manage only 114 runs in 176 balls.But Sachin alone could manage 91 off just 87 balls.

Sachin was a master at building these type of inns. When all others around  found it extremely difficult to score, he found  it so different because of his exceptional talent.That also is match temperament, not being slightly better in finishing huge targets alone.

 

 

Care to explain  the 2nd bolded part....

 

21

Dravid if necessary will step up in both the innings. Eden gardens twin centuries against Pakistan, twin fifties on a dodgy pitch against Windies, 233 & 72 against Australia at adelaide. It is not like he would click one innings and disappear at the other. All 3 resulted in India winning the test. Tendulkar very often an one innings guy. 

[rtmohanlal]

38 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Dravid if necessary will step up in both the innings. Eden gardens twin centuries against Pakistan, twin fifties on a dodgy pitch against Windies, 233 & 72 against Australia at adelaide. It is not like he would click one innings and disappear at the other. All 3 resulted in India winning the test. Tendulkar very often an one innings guy. 

68-119* in ENG,179-54 vs WI,  47-113 in NZL, 177-74 in ENG, 116-52 in AUS , 41-86 in WI, 214-53* vs AUS,74-36* in Zim ,49-64 in NZL  all comes into mind along with 241*-61* in AUS.  

Even his 35-57 in Pak in his first tour was such a quality performance when you consider his age, the prestige

associated with the result, the match situation & the opposition  bowling quality.

  I am sure, if I make a deeper analysis I can trace out  more.All the  above said were either  'at  abroad'  or 'back to the wall' or 'against top quality bowling  attack' or 'mammoth scores' or  a combination of these.So ,your point?? 

Edited November 2, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

Dravid if necessary will step up in both the innings. Eden gardens twin centuries against Pakistan, twin fifties on a dodgy pitch against Windies, 233 & 72 against Australia at adelaide. It is not like he would click one innings and disappear at the other. All 3 resulted in India winning the test. Tendulkar very often an one innings guy. 

Spot on, tendulkar used to get his one or two scores per series and rest of time he would not make any difference. Especially after 2000.This he changed in in 2010-11 when he became super consistent.I always felt that was the best Sachin played as test batsman.He won ICC player of the year also then.The 2011 world cup also , he was awesome till finals.He along with Zak are one of main reasons why India won the world cup.

 

Kohli has not yet shown his best in world cups.He also would acknowledge it.But 2011 he was still very young and 2015 he faded as world cup went on as that was coming after long long tour.

 

2019 he has to come good  otherwise narrative will change about him too.

 

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

No worries. But beating Pakistan was still important as it meant carrying forward more points and making it easier for us to reach semis. It wasn't a dead rubber by any means. 

I didn't mean to diminish the significance.Comparing that to Kohli hundred in 2015 , I don't  know how is it is any different.Kohli's knock came in opening match which played a vital role India steam rolling everyone till semis.

 

Kohli would be first person to say he need to do well in knock out matches but both world cups came at wrong time for him.One he was too young and other he got too tired in my opinion. It is not an excuse but my opinion.

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

How is the world was Sachin head and shoulders above his peers. Your so called head and shoulders above his peers batsman took 5 trips to score an odi hundred in Australia against home team.

Because until his 5th trip, he had a dozen matches in Australia against ANYONE. 

He is head and shoulders above everyone because no one comes close to him in average+ strike rate from his era. He is ahead of his peers than Virat, because ABDV is right there with Virat for average + strike rate. Simple.

Quote

same against SA, same against NZ. and same in England too that too when England had a very poor team.So 4 total hundreds SENA countries in over 100 matches.

wtf are on you on about ? You wanna check how many batsmen of that era have centuries against SENA countries in their backyard in the first place ? He has 4 centuries in SENA countries vs them and including west indies (who had an ATG attack during Tendulkar's peak). 

Quote

 

This is what so called greatest batsman could do in 24 years, where as mere mortals like Kohli have already scored more hundreds in all those countries.

Because its easy to score hundreds today than in Tendulkar's era. Thats why. This is statistical fact. And except for South Africa, none of the ODI attacks of Kohli's time are greater than that of Sachin's time as far as opposition goes and even then, the Saffie attack today is just as good/tad better than the 90s attack.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

16 hours ago, rkt.india said:

ER is directly proportional to batsmen's ability to strike.  He was best among his peers does not mean he is better than the best batsman today.

It can mean he is better than the best batsmen today if his ability to strike is significantly greater than batsmen of his time but close to the ones today who have a much higher average strike rate. Tendulkar's ability to strike is much greater than Kohli's comparative to his era and when normalized for the strike rate inflation of today. Simple math tells us so. 

16 hours ago, rkt.india said:

  Kohli's biggest strength is his consistency with which he is scoring runs.  The guy is averaging close to 75 in the last 5 years and there is no one close to him at his peak. 

Yes, there is. He is averaging high 60s in his peak period and so is ABDV. 

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

68-119* in ENG,179-54 vs WI,  47-113 in NZL, 177-74 in ENG, 116-52 in AUS , 41-86 in WI, 214-53* vs AUS,74-36* in Zim ,49-64 in NZL  all comes into mind along with 241*-61* in AUS.  

Even his 35-57 in Pak in his first tour was such a quality performance when you consider his age, the prestige

associated with the result, the match situation & the opposition  bowling quality.

  I am sure, if I make a deeper analysis I can trace out  more.All the  above said were either  'at  abroad'  or 'back to the wall' or 'against top quality bowling  attack' or 'mammoth scores' or  a combination of these.So ,your point?? 

You have basically listed the innings where he made runs in both innings. I'll give it for the first one. In a career with 200 tests it is not that hard to find fwe instances. I am talking about crunch knocks when winining or losing was on the line. Dravid has also scored 190 & 103 in NZ. It means nothing. It ended in a boring draw. I am not talking about such matches. These were crunch matches. Tendulkar often would go after bowling make quick runs and perish when others fail. There are some great test innings by him. 136 against Pakistan, 117 in saving a match, 155 at chennai. But he failed on occasions where even a minor contribution could have helped us win. vs Pakistan at Bangalore, vs WI in WI (80 all out India), vs SA (struggled against debutant harris),  vs Zimbabwe in Zimbabwe . All resulted in losses. In subcontinental conditions Sehwag is a bigger match winner than Sachin. Sachin is technically great. he can bat well on any ground against any opposition. That's about it. In terms of impact he is  no better than any other batsman. Dravid/Laxman played more high pressure innings than Sachin. You can go through the old threads of ICF you could see the frustration of fans.

[rtmohanlal]

3 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

You have basically listed the innings where he made runs in both innings. I'll give it for the first one. In a career with 200 tests it is not that hard to find fwe instances. I am talking about crunch knocks when winining or losing was on the line. Dravid has also scored 190 & 103 in NZ. It means nothing. It ended in a boring draw. I am not talking about such matches. These were crunch matches. Tendulkar often would go after bowling make quick runs and perish when others fail. There are some great test innings by him. 136 against Pakistan, 117 in saving a match, 155 at chennai. But he failed on occasions where even a minor contribution could have helped us win. vs Pakistan at Bangalore, vs WI in WI (80 all out India), vs SA (struggled against debutant harris),  vs Zimbabwe in Zimbabwe . All resulted in losses. In subcontinental conditions Sehwag is a bigger match winner than Sachin. Sachin is technically great. he can bat well on any ground against any opposition. That's about it. In terms of impact he is  no better than any other batsman. Dravid/Laxman played more high pressure innings than Sachin. You can go through the old threads of ICF you could see the frustration of fans.

just can't understand some of these logics here. To clarify , I am going a bit deeper here

68-119* in ENG,179-54 vs WI,  47-113 in NZL, 177-74 in ENG, 116-52 in AUS , 41-86 in WI, 214-53* vs AUS,74-36* in Zim ,49-64 in NZL  all comes into mind along with 241*-60* in AUS.  

Even his 35-57 in Pak in his first tour was such a quality performance when you consider his age, the prestige

 

His 119* in ENG earned a respectable 1-0 loss instead of a 2-0 loss. And this is no better reflected  in the reccent 1-4 loss. As a fan, badly wished if IND coud win either of those close matches because 2-3 is so respectable than an 1-4.From that point take his 177-74. ENG had already won first test despite Sachin performing brilliantly in the 3rd inns.In the 3rd test , not only did Sachin lay the foundation   for a respective 0-1 loss  if not for an 1-1 draw , but  in the 3rd inns when every one was falling around him  he dragged the  score to 211.Had Sachin too got out cheaply, IND could have even  lost the test and there by the series 0-2(keep in mind the Sydney 2008 test).

Take that 47-113 in NZL. After the first  test getting washed out, Sachin  along with Azhar gave some thing to defend with a 208 end score.And after conceeding a huge 144 run lead in first inns, Sachin again scored that 113 with NZL left 213 to win.Had it not for  bowlers incompetency IND could have won that test.So what do you expect here from Sachin?? To bowl the team out of trouble too????Infact had IND won this test, it would have at least earned a series draw if not  a  won seires.Was n'tit  a crunch situation   for Sachin to perform???

 

Similarly take his 86 in WI. In that 4rth inns of the 5th test with series at 1-1 he scored that  86.Wasn't this a crunch situation??Even take that 241*.The series in the balance, wasn't it a crunch situation  for him to score 241* in the last test???? And he backed it up with a 60*  in  the 2nd inns so that IND can win.

 

Like wise I can find this crunhness in almost all of the above pointed out pair of knocks.

 

And now come the changing of goal posts. Dragging Sehwag and his asian exploits.Every kid knows that Sehwag was a monster in Asia.But his other short comings  make him inferior to Sachin. Similar is the case with Laxman who was virtually a non existant one day player.To be precise no body is claiming that Sachin was the best in each and every batting factor. It is just that when all things combined he was the  most complete and hence the best  of them all.

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[Lannister]

Kohli is ahead in ODIs but Sachin was a high-strike rate player, so he would be a better batsman in T20s. As for Tests, there's still room for Kohli to improve but if he continues his form in the next overseas cycle, he will overtake Sachin. 

 

As of now,

Tests: Sachin > Kohli

ODIs: Kohli > Sachin

T20s: Sachin > Kohli

[Vilander]

6 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

neglecting tampering matter for now

No lets not neglect that pls.

[Jimmy Cliff]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

I didn't mean to diminish the significance.Comparing that to Kohli hundred in 2015 , I don't  know how is it is any different.Kohli's knock came in opening match which played a vital role India steam rolling everyone till semis.

 

Kohli would be first person to say he need to do well in knock out matches but both world cups came at wrong time for him.One he was too young and other he got too tired in my opinion. It is not an excuse but my opinion.

Yes I don't see any difference between scoring 98(75) vs Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib and scoring 107(126) vs Wahab/Sohail Khan/Irfan either .

[mishra]

Some people will keep bringing down sachin on ground of average compared to so and so, without even considering playing condition

Since 2011, He wasnt same player and a lot of people bashed him. However, Below is the stats during Kohli Sachin overlap period where a young dashing Kohli comfortably outscrore Sachin by whopping 1.40 run.

Sachin    2008-2012     46     2065     200*     49.16
Kohli      2008-2012     85     3590     183     50.56 

[velu]

3 minutes ago, mishra said:

Some people will keep bringing down sachin on ground of average compared to so and so, without even considering playing condition

Since 2011, He wasnt same player and a lot of people bashed him. However, Below is the stats during Kohli Sachin overlap period where a young dashing Kohli comfortably outscrore Sachin by whopping 1.40 run.

Sachin    2008-2012     46     2065     200*     49.16
Kohli      2008-2012     85     3590     183     50.56 

 

kohli was still a kid .. even in 2011 wc kohli was just an another player ( raina was rated higher than kohli till that point ) ..

kohli sort of developed after 2011wc 

[velu]

@mishra

 

When sachin and kohli played together ( ODIs )  ..

kohli averages 51.8 and sachin averages 46.62..

 

 

 

in tests when they played together ..

kohli averages 46 and sachin 30 ..

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

To put it in much better way

Whom wud u have in the team kohli or sachin if u cud only have one of them ???

 

Ill have kohli any day in ODI's , the control he has over his game currently......better then i have seen with anyone ever . 

Whenever i see kohli score runs i go back to check any of sachin's innings , sachin is baap when it comes to the batsmanship but the control that kohli has gives u more confidence. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Ankit_sharma03

[Nikola]

3 hours ago, velu said:

@mishra

 

When sachin and kohli played together ( ODIs )  ..

kohli averages 51.8 and sachin averages 46.62..

 

 

 

in tests when they played together ..

kohli averages 46 and sachin 30 ..

 

 

 

 

So when Shubman Gill or Prithvi Shaw will be at their young peak, will kohli will be able to match them?

[velu]

10 minutes ago, Nikola said:

So when Shubman Gill or Prithvi Shaw will be at their young peak, will kohli will be able to match them?

 

3 hours ago, mishra said:

Some people will keep bringing down sachin on ground of average compared to so and so, without even considering playing condition

Since 2011, He wasnt same player and a lot of people bashed him. However, Below is the stats during Kohli Sachin overlap period where a young dashing Kohli comfortably outscrore Sachin by whopping 1.40 run.

Sachin    2008-2012     46     2065     200*     49.16
Kohli      2008-2012     85     3590     183     50.56 

 

i just pointed out @mishra ji ka mistake 

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Yes I don't see any difference between scoring 98(75) vs Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib and scoring 107(126) vs Wahab/Sohail Khan/Irfan either .

Wasim and Waqar were playing their last match ,so we all know how wonderful they were then. If that was his one of the best knocks as told by many of his fans then we can assess how well he did against great bowlers in their prime.2015 attack was much more potent than that attack.

 

There is reason why his rating never went above 890 in both tests and odis.