India’s problem is not choking it is lack of planning and vision

[maniac]

I heard the word choking thrown around a lot here for the team and Kohli but India’s problem is not choking. Choking is what SA used to do by folding from winnable positions, Indian team is very strong and consistent however they are not prepared for all situations and in a knockout format they get caught in situations were they already have had problems.

 

In T20’s Lets take the example of today’s game. Had India batted first, the target would have been about 180-200 which the WI team would have backed themselves to chase. On the other hand India could have chased even if WI had got 10 runs more.

 

In knockouts we find ourselves in such situations were we are just not ready. In league games we get away with the odd hiccup but knockouts we cannot recover  from it.

 

We might become no.1 in T20s with all these series win but come WT20 we might just find ourselves in a situation in a knockout game or a must win game where we might have to set a target on a flat pitch. 
 

Will our approach change batting first remains to be seen.

[express bowling]

Our biggest problem in LOIs is that our top 3 never let anyone else get batting practice in low importance and / or easy games.

 

We are not prepared if we suddenly become 20 for 3.  All our other batters from 4 onwards just do not have enough practice of innings building in LOIs.

 

This is basically lack of planning and propensity to pad stats by top 3 in easier games.

Edited December 7, 2019 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Our biggest problem in LOIs is that our top 3 never let anyone else get batting practice in low importance and / or easy games.

 

True, Rohit n kohli playing such series is a problem. They will finish most games on their own and these guys dont get any experience and once comes a high pressure game where they fail ...these youngster have no exp. 

 

It was a gr8 innings by kohli but i wished all the time that he shudnt have been playing coz i wanted to see rahul , iyer, pant in this situation without kohli . Atleast we can do that in WI, SL series at home

[Ankit_sharma03]

53 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

In knockouts we find ourselves in such situations were we are just not ready. In league games we get away with the odd hiccup but knockouts we cannot recover  from it.

 

thats becoz KO in world tournament have different pressure, u knw its now or never for an event that u waited for 2-4 yrs. Kohli as captain is poor under this pressure which is why he hasnt found success in Tournaments. A captain under pressure affects team same was issue with ganguly. Rohit, Dhoni, Gambhir all are better this pressure which shows in IPL

[SK_IH]

Failing on the crucial day also amounts to choking especially after stream rolling the opposition earlier. If it happens regularly it means the tendency to break up under pressure.

Why can't even one of the much celebrated top 3 conjure up an innings of substance in a big match. 

[Khota]

last WC loss was all on planning.

[Gollum]

Talking about ODIs becuase we simply aren't good enough in T20s...only real miss was 2014 WT20, we lost because of MSD's chewtiya captaincy and relaxed chucking rules (Senanayake) more than anything.

 

A player of Kohli's class averaging 13 at 56 SR in WC KOs is choking

An ICC specialist like Dhawan failing in all KO matches is choking

Rohit doing zilch against non-Bangla opponents in KO stage is choking

These 3 fail even in KOs of smaller events like Asia Cup

 

3 main engines of our batting order failing again and again when team needs at least 1 of them to stand tall , they consume bulk of the overs in normal ODIs thus depriving others of the chance to hone their game. 

 

Contrast these 3 with Hayden/Gilly/Ponting....statisticially the Indian trio is well ahead but did the Aussie trio ever go missing collectively in big matches? 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Gollum

[Real McCoy]

8 hours ago, maniac said:

I heard the word choking thrown around a lot here for the team and Kohli but India’s problem is not choking. Choking is what SA used to do by folding from winnable positions, Indian team is very strong and consistent however they are not prepared for all situations and in a knockout format they get caught in situations were they already have had problems.

 

In T20’s Lets take the example of today’s game. Had India batted first, the target would have been about 180-200 which the WI team would have backed themselves to chase. On the other hand India could have chased even if WI had got 10 runs more.

 

In knockouts we find ourselves in such situations were we are just not ready. In league games we get away with the odd hiccup but knockouts we cannot recover  from it.

 

We might become no.1 in T20s with all these series win but come WT20 we might just find ourselves in a situation in a knockout game or a must win game where we might have to set a target on a flat pitch. 
 

Will our approach change batting first remains to be seen.

We don't go for broke while batting first and setting up targets when we have the upper hand. Prime example is Kohli playing the t20 innings of his life in the 2016 match against Aus which was a virtual QF. And later in the SF against WI, we settled for 190 with Kohli again hitting a 50. If he pushed a bit hard, we could have posted 200+ and make the game more interesting. Also we dropped several chances against Simmons one of them was a no ball IIRC and he ended up smashing us. Compare that with how Ponting showed more urgency in the 2003 final. They were 2 down for 200 in the 35th over. He kept pushing for more and more once he had the upper hand. That's the mentality Kohli and his team needs.

[maniac]

7 hours ago, SK_IH said:

Failing on the crucial day also amounts to choking especially after stream rolling the opposition earlier. If it happens regularly it means the tendency to break up under pressure.

Why can't even one of the much celebrated top 3 conjure up an innings of substance in a big match. 

Your point is semi valid. However I would have considered it a choke had we dominated throughout the tournament and then just had 1 bizarre breakdown like SA had in such tournaments.

 

However, India has been vulnerable in these tournaments and the chinks in their armor was visible but still didn’t do anything to fix it.

 

2016 Wt20- We lost to Nzl and almost got knocked out by Bangladesh. In the Bangladesh game we played conservative cricket and had a subpar score. We don’t innovate with the batting order. Still we kept playing the same kind of cricket. Got lucky we had to chase in most games with Kohli in prime chasing form and then come semis got caught our pants down.

 

2017 CT- We lost to Srilanka defending . It was our own damn fault we were 15-20 runs short on a flat pitch but what did we do, we panicked and made the boneheaded decision of putting Pakistan in on a flat pitch on a sunny day and gave them their best shot which is defending. That’s not choking, that was stupidity.

 

2014 WT20- Yuvraj had a bad day. In fact he had struggled throughout the tournament but instead of making tough calls, we kept backing him on his reputation hoping he would click. There was no choke there. It was a case of a player in poor form and confidence exposed.

 

2015 WC-fine  I might consider this a choke but then we were playing the best team in the tournament on their home turf and have been getting our ass handed to us by them for a few months prior to that but sure, we were dominating and we had a poor day in knockouts so you can call that a choke if you want.

 

2019 WC- our Lower order showed inability to finish games when our top 3 got out. We meekly gave up  against England without trying which was pathetic stating net run rate. That was disgusting. When our top 3 had a bad day we barely put a competitive score against Afghan and WI. We had bizarre selections and team combos throughout the tournament. Our vulnerability was visible and then finally got caught up with us. 
 

A little bit of common sense, some out of the box thinking and some fair selections could have won us atleast 3/5 tournaments.

Edited December 7, 2019 by maniac

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

32 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Compare that with how Ponting showed more urgency in the 2003 final. They were 2 down for 200 in the 35th over. He kept pushing for more and more once he had the upper hand. That's the mentality Kohli and his team needs.

Ponting's team in 2003 had a far superior middle order than this Indian team did. Of course he would push for more from such a strong position. 

[Real McCoy]

16 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Ponting's team in 2003 had a far superior middle order than this Indian team did. Of course he would push for more from such a strong position. 

You will never know if you don't dare to take chances. And its T20s were talking about. If you don't dare, you lose. Who knows Iyer, Pant and Sundar can hit some into the stands as well. Kohli started finding his groove after Pant hit the first ball for a six. Don't underestimate his ego issues. He was probably disturbed by Pant's sweet connection on his bat swing as much as by the bowlers antics. His ego helped him be better this match

[Khota]

8 hours ago, SK_IH said:

Failing on the crucial day also amounts to choking especially after stream rolling the opposition earlier. If it happens regularly it means the tendency to break up under pressure.

Why can't even one of the much celebrated top 3 conjure up an innings of substance in a big match. 

You can and should not count on top three all the time. The problem was there was no 4, 5 and 6. Failures happen all the time during a game and a good team overcomes it.

 

Everyone associated with picking three wktkprs to play in the SF should have been fired. Batting is a job of a specialist and raydu and Jadhav would have won it for India. Not very complicated.

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, Khota said:

You can and should not count on top three all the time. The problem was there was no 4, 5 and 6. Failures happen all the time during a game and a good team overcomes it.

cant agree more, at the end it takes one ball to get out and opposition come planned mostly for our top 3 only

[vvvslaxman]

ALl great teams have suffered collapses. It is how they come back makes them great. Australia twice reduced to almost nothing in 2003 world cup. Both occasions Bichel bailed them out. Also against Pakistan they were struggling. Symonds bailed them out. India is not a great team yet. They rely on individuals at the top. Great team will have part timers who take wickets, tailenders who scores runs.  They have all the bases covered for any situation. India almost pulled off a magic with Jadeja.  If India had some other who is not a mental midget like KKD they could have won. Inspite of loss 3 wickets India could still have won. I understand chasing big total is a tall ask like in CB final,  WC semi final(which was even tougher against aussie bowling in their home ground). Bowlers were to blame there. Indian middle order has been dodgy for a while. old Dhoni, old yuvraj, old Raina gave this assurance that India could come back any time. We need such combo in the middle. Jadhav, new Dhoni, KKD recipe for disaster.

[Khota]

17 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

cant agree more, at the end it takes one ball to get out and opposition come planned mostly for our top 3 only

Bad calls, bad shots, dropped catches will happen. You just need to overcomethat.

[maniac]

We have a WT20 in Australia and our idea of a bowling attack is Chahar,Bhuvi and Dube. 
 

Now let us say this was a semifinal, chasing 207 would have a different level of pressure and what would be the score we would be comfortable defending?

 

Obviously horses for courses is fine because Chahar and Bhuvi might be adequate in these conditions but is there any plan or vision to groom someone for Australia even in the backup.

 

Why can’t BCCI let someone like a Dube or even fringe players like Sundar,Krunal,Samson etc play big bash?

 

I am not saying these are solutions but there seem to be no out of the box thinking or vision.

 

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

1 hour ago, Real McCoy said:

You will never know if you don't dare to take chances. And its T20s were talking about. If you don't dare, you lose. Who knows Iyer, Pant and Sundar can hit some into the stands as well. Kohli started finding his groove after Pant hit the first ball for a six. Don't underestimate his ego issues. He was probably disturbed by Pant's sweet connection on his bat swing as much as by the bowlers antics. His ego helped him be better this match

Kohli was trying though. He as trying to slog them and didn't find the middle of the bat. But he was also not getting out.

[maniac]

This is what happens.

 

Last match everyone were going gaga over super v’s heroics forgetting our problems.

 

This could have so easily been a knockout of a tournament 

[Sandeep99]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:16 AM, express bowling said:

Our biggest problem in LOIs is that our top 3 never let anyone else get batting practice in low importance and / or easy games.

 

We are not prepared if we suddenly become 20 for 3.  All our other batters from 4 onwards just do not have enough practice of innings building in LOIs.

 

This is basically lack of planning and propensity to pad stats by top 3 in easier games.

This. How else will Kohli and Rohit amass all shi**y records?

[Sandeep99]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

This is what happens.

 

Last match everyone were going gaga over super v’s heroics forgetting our problems.

 

This could have so easily been a knockout of a tournament 

Remember last T20 semi final? Exact same situation, including the batsman Simmons and drop catches. Ah deja-vu! We learnt nothing from that game.