How great was Wasim Akram ?Best pace bowler of all time?

[Harsh Thakor]

3 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

 Hadlee is 12th? I would say 13 maybe 

In skill he surpassed everyone with only Lillee and Marshall in his league who were more agressive and accurate.No bowler was more diverse or creative or as unreadable.Better performer on flat batting than Hadleee and Ambrose.In peak era from 1990-98 Wasim performed better than Donald,Waqar or Ambrose .

 

3 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

 Hadlee is 12th? I would say 13 maybe 

 

3 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

 Hadlee is 12th? I would say 13 maybe 

 

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Harsh Thakor said:

Remember that Ambrose and Hadlee were not as outstanding in unhelpful condition on flat tracks where Wasim was the ultimate champion.Even if not the quickest or most accurate he was more lethal than anyone and in his peak era overshadowed Ambrose,Donald and Waqar.Ambrose was a champion as a match winner on broken wickets while Hadlee was the master on a green top.Lillee was more complete than either of them like Wasim.Hadlee often became defensive when the going was against him while Ambrose could become predictable.I agree in helpful condition sthey wee right at the top but morally Lillee,Wasim or even Andy Roberts were more complete.THe most intelligent of all was Glen Mcgrath who surpassed everyone in terms of craft for fast-medium pace ,who could win more games in unhelpful conditions than Hadleee or Ambrose.Also remember Wasim overshadowed Waqar against strong teams.,

Hadlee actually won a test for NZ in India .... below is 1988 series 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team New Zealand

Opposition team India

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1988 and 1 Jan 1989

Ordered by wickets taken (descending)

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Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Sir RJ Hadlee	3	4	100.5	28	252	18	6/49	10/88	14.00	2.49	33.6	2	1
JG Bracewell	3	5	88.4	11	332	8	6/51	8/132	41.50	3.74	66.5	1	0
EJ Chatfield	3	6	106.0	25	261	6	3/82	3/87	43.50	2.46	106.0	0	0
MC Snedden	1	2	19.3	3	82	4	4/69	4/82	20.50	4.20	29.2	0	0
EJ Gray	1	2	51.0	8	167	3	2/128	3/167	55.66	3.27	102.0	0	0
CM Kuggeleijn	2	3	16.1	2	67	1	1/50	1/50	67.00	4.14	97.0	0	0
DK Morrison	1	2	22.0	2	85	0	-	-	-	3.86	-	0

 

 

We know  about Ambrose's performances vs teams such as Aus and SA, which were among the strongest in 90s:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or South Africa

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 40

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1991-1999	27	50	1097.0	293	2550	123	7/25	10/120	20.73	2.32	53.5	9	1
IR Bishop (WI)	1992-1997	10	19	372.3	69	990	43	6/40	8/57	23.02	2.65	51.9	1	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1991-1999	28	53	1111.4	232	2977	120	6/54	9/146	24.80	2.67	55.5	5	0
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1990-1999	17	28	639.2	137	1675	63	6/62	11/160	26.58	2.61	60.8	4	1
ARC Fraser (ENG)	1990-1998	19	33	743.0	168	1984	72	6/82	10/122	27.55	2.67	61.9	6	1
AA Donald (SA)	1993-1998	11	19	464.0	102	1337	48	6/59	9/133	27.85	2.88	58.0	2	0
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1990-1999	14	25	413.5	85	1303	44	6/78	10/133	29.61	3.14	56.4	1	1
DG Cork (ENG)	1995-1998	12	18	421.0	88	1223	41	6/119	9/162	29.82	2.90	61.6	3	0
D Gough (ENG)	1994-1999	24	40	890.4	177	2884	95	6/42	9/100	30.35	3.23	56.2	5	0
J Srinath (INDIA)	1991-1999	18	36	773.1	167	2274	73	6/21	8/68	31.15	2.94	63.5	2	0
AR Caddick (ENG)	1993-1999	12	20	467.5	93	1448	41	7/46	8/116	35.31	3.09	68.4	3	0
DE Malcolm (ENG)	1990-1997	17	33	642.3	122	2063	57	9/57	10/138	36.19	3.21	67.6	1	1

 

Thank you! 

 

[Harsh Thakor]

3 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Does not makes the top 10 I watched

 

 

Marshall

Holding

Garner

Roberts

Croft

Ambrose

Walsh

Thomson

Lillee

McGrath

Steyn

 

 

He would be 12th

 

Was Wasim not more complete than any pacemen more lethal and best bowler in peak from 1990-98?He was better than Ambrose ,Donald  or Hadlee in unhelpful conditions.Significant that in peak era he performed better than Ambrose,Waqar or Donald.Ambrose was thew best ever in helpful conditions arguably and certainly on a broken wicket but was not so outstanding on flat wickets.Hadlee too became defensive when the going was not good.Even ststaitsically Wasim is amongts the top 3-4 overall and in test cricket amongst the top 8 in the total package of average,strike rate and haul.Wasim has a better record against strong teams than Waqar .

[velu]

3 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

He is an ATG but not even the top 5 of all time, may be top 10.

 

i rate him higher .. definitely in my top #7 bowlers .. probably 5/7

[nevada]

2 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

Not true. Here is an excerpt  from Harsh Thakor's diary

 

The young hot stud Wasim with those long flowing locks stood mesmerized in the nets one day under the heavenly Karachi sun when he saw this majestic creature who had descended from the abode of gods. The young stud basked in the radiance of the man and suddenly he felt a tingling sensation in his tool. When he opened his metaphoric toolbox, he realized that all of a sudden he was blessed with multiple tools. Majestic Majid inspected all the tools of the young stud and tampered with one of them and that lo and behold became the art of reverse swing.

 

All hail Majid!!!

Metaphoric toolbox  

[kohli]

1 hour ago, Harsh Thakor said:

A fair or good list and conclusion.Do remember how oustanding Wasim was on flat decks on the sub-continent and how in peak era he overshadowed Ambrose ,Waqar and Donald.Imran was better in peak era and in terms of best figures but overall not as consistent in all phases of career.Wasim had more longevity starting his carer at the age of 19 and being outstanding from the start .On flat tracks or on cricket wickets Wasim was better than Ambose,although the latter was more of a match-winner.Wasim was more capable of a cruicial breakthrough when great batsmen were well set,Ambrose was not at his best in the sub-continent .

 

In test and ODI in 1st 2 and in 1st 5 in only tests.Why do you rtae Donald ahead in tests and Steyn and Wasim not in top 3 overall?

Donald is a match winner in test . His avg , sr everything better than akram. His record was excellent in india. @zen already uploaded a list , where doland has better record vs big team.if you count overall fast bowler (test +odi) akram ranked 2nd behind only McGrath. There are only few fast bowler who are equally great in both format McGrath, wasim, donald & waqar.ambrose, imran,steyn & marshall all four is atg in test but avg odi bowler 

[Deleted_User_1]

3 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Well, a specialist bowler is expected to do better than world class ATG and I feel Akram was slightly better bowler than Kapil.  Both toiled on wickets which were not friendly for pacers. If Kapil was an Aussie replacing anyone of Lillee and Thomson combo or Pakistani replacing any of Akram - Waqar or West Indian replacing one of Walsh - Ambrose, or Pollock - Donald or WI pairs in 70's in tandem, he would have been more dangerous with a world-class Pacer at other end.

 

Kapil had to bowl lot with Maninder Singh, Prabhakar, Chetan Sharma, Madam Lal and Roger Binny. So we have to acknowledge the major difference in overall bowling strength of both teams during the career of Kapil and Akram.

Akram tampered the ball which aided his bowling. The whole Porrki team was behind it. Kapil did not. End of story. Phucker should be banned from India and Indian shows.

[zen]

del

Edited February 6, 2020 by zen

[zen]

3 hours ago, zen said:

Vs. top teams:

 

iew overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 200  and bowling average less than or equal to 25

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	81	151	17584	7876	376	7/22	11/89	20.94	2.68	46.7	22	4
J Garner (WI)	1977-1987	58	111	13169	5433	259	6/56	9/108	20.97	2.47	50.8	7	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	93	169	21254	8211	383	8/45	11/84	21.43	2.31	55.4	21	3
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	112	220	26657	11107	512	8/24	10/27	21.69	2.49	52.0	27	3
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	63	112	13670	6557	287	7/84	12/139	22.84	2.87	47.6	17	2
DW Steyn (SA)	2004-2019	75	138	15331	8311	360	7/51	11/60	23.08	3.25	42.5	21	5
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	80	139	20513	9138	394	9/52	15/123	23.19	2.67	52.0	34	8
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	60	113	12680	5898	249	8/92	14/149	23.68	2.79	50.9	13	2
DK Lillee (AUS)	1971-1984	69	130	18287	8386	352	7/83	11/123	23.82	2.75	51.9	23	7
SM Pollock (SA)	1995-2008	87	162	20483	8166	341	7/87	10/147	23.94	2.39	60.0	14	1
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	78	128	17670	7585	316	8/60	12/165	24.00	2.57	55.9	20	5
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	73	128	16822	7388	304	7/119	11/110	24.30	2.63	55.3	18	4
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	127	232	28953	12276	502	7/37	13/55	24.45	2.54	57.6	22	3

 

 

Away

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 26

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
J Garner (WI)	1979-1987	29	55	6885	2685	136	6/56	9/108	19.74	2.33	50.6	4	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	45	84	10668	4172	199	7/25	10/120	20.96	2.34	53.6	11	1
GD McGrath (AUS)	1994-2005	51	99	12230	5247	248	8/38	10/78	21.15	2.57	49.3	18	1
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	50	93	10912	4726	219	7/22	10/92	21.57	2.59	49.8	14	2
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	39	68	10315	4664	203	9/52	15/123	22.97	2.71	50.8	19	5
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	37	71	8367	3855	163	8/92	14/149	23.65	2.76	51.3	11	2
AME Roberts (WI)	1974-1983	29	56	6961	3104	130	7/54	12/121	23.87	2.67	53.5	9	2
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1982	25	46	6753	2904	121	7/89	11/123	24.00	2.58	55.8	8	3
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	29	52	6524	3133	128	6/59	9/133	24.47	2.88	50.9	6	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	73	135	16338	7200	289	7/37	13/55	24.91	2.64	56.5	14	2
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	49	86	11886	5210	208	7/119	11/110	25.04	2.62	57.1	14	4
TM Alderman (AUS)	1981-1991	21	39	5557	2616	102	6/128	10/151	25.64	2.82	54.4	10	1
DW Steyn (SA)	2007-2016	26	45	5191	2909	113	7/51	10/108	25.74	3.36	45.9	7

 

 

In wins

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Match result won match

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 20

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1974-1990	18	36	4948	1975	145	9/52	15/123	13.62	2.39	34.1	15	7
Imran Khan (PAK)	1976-1990	21	38	5047	1924	122	8/60	12/165	15.77	2.28	41.3	8	5
MD Marshall (WI)	1980-1991	43	86	9678	4264	254	7/22	11/89	16.78	2.64	38.1	17	4
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2001	26	50	5284	2558	152	7/84	12/139	16.82	2.90	34.7	12	2
DW Steyn (SA)	2006-2019	40	78	8260	4339	257	7/51	11/60	16.88	3.15	32.1	19	5
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	41	81	9578	3685	213	8/45	11/84	17.30	2.30	44.9	12	3
VD Philander (SA)	2011-2019	27	54	5050	2090	119	6/21	10/114	17.56	2.48	42.4	8	1
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1984	30	59	7743	3602	200	7/83	11/123	18.01	2.79	38.7	17	6
SM Pollock (SA)	1996-2008	35	70	8152	3069	168	6/56	10/147	18.26	2.25	48.5	7	1
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1986	31	62	6107	2791	152	8/92	14/149	18.36	2.74	40.1	6	1
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1986-2001	24	48	5571	2416	130	7/119	11/179	18.58	2.60	42.8	7	1
AME Roberts (WI)	1974-1983	21	42	4650	2119	110	7/54	9/59	19.26	2.73	42.2	5	0
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	76	152	17902	7190	372	8/24	10/27	19.32	2.40	48.1	16	3
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1983	31	62	6117	2690	137	8/43	9/142	19.63	2.63	44.6	7	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	49	97	10450	4497	229	7/37	13/55	19.63	2.58	45.6	10	2
J Garner (WI)	1977-1986	30	60	6557	2799	142	5/55	9/108	19.71	2.56	46.1	3	0
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1991	31	60	7236	3351	168	8/34	13/106	19.94	2.77	43.0	15	2

 

 

My top 3 picks (in no particular order) for the AT world 11 spots. 4th bowler will be Warne, the premier test spinner 

• Marshall, the premier test pace bowler
• Hadlee, the premier test match winner 
• Ambrose, ability to run through sides

 

To add to the tables above:

 

Performance in wins "away"

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Match result won match

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications bowling average less than or equal to 20  and wickets taken greater than or equal to 40

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1983-1988	5	10	1604	595	46	9/52	15/123	12.93	2.22	34.8	6	4
JJ Bumrah (INDIA)	2018-2019	6	12	1279	554	42	6/27	9/86	13.19	2.59	30.4	5	0
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1982	6	11	1360	597	43	6/72	11/123	13.88	2.63	31.6	6	2
Imran Khan (PAK)	1977-1988	8	15	2082	799	50	7/40	12/165	15.98	2.30	41.6	4	3
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	18	35	4115	1570	98	7/25	10/120	16.02	2.28	41.9	6	1
MD Marshall (WI)	1980-1991	24	48	5433	2275	140	7/22	10/92	16.25	2.51	38.8	10	2
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1984	17	34	3642	1641	95	8/92	14/149	17.27	2.70	38.3	6	1
GD McGrath (AUS)	1994-2005	27	54	6457	2588	145	6/115	10/78	17.84	2.40	44.5	9	1
SM Pollock (SA)	1997-2004	9	18	2338	831	46	5/33	7/87	18.06	2.13	50.8	2	0
DW Steyn (SA)	2007-2016	13	25	2803	1537	85	7/51	10/108	18.08	3.29	32.9	7	2
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1982	12	24	2121	832	45	5/27	7/59	18.48	2.35	47.1	2	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2000	25	49	4789	2123	112	7/37	13/55	18.95	2.65	42.7	7	1
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1987-2001	15	30	3645	1588	83	7/119	11/179	19.13	2.61	43.9	5	1
IT Botham (ENG)	1978-1986	10	18	2100	976	49	7/48	13/106	19.91	2.78	42.8	4	1

 

• Good to see Bumrah produce performance like Hadlee so far 

 

Eventually, we may need a thread such as "Is Bumrah the best pace bowler from the subcon?"

Edited February 6, 2020 by zen

[putrevus]

Akram would walk into any all time XI , he is the most complete fast bowler who has played this game.There was nothing he could not do, he could swing new ball both ways, bowl very fast , reverse swing both ways,

 

He was the great in odis too.I don't think any other bowler had skills like him.

Edited February 6, 2020 by putrevus

[daryl1985]

7 hours ago, zen said:

Pakistan "AT attack" had a chance to close this game in Aus but 

 

 

 

Pakistan may have lost anyway but this did not help.

[Vickydev]

As others have said, in test matches there were better bowlers. But for me he is up there at the top as an ODI bowler. As a left armer who could move the ball both ways, deadly with the new ball and clinical with the old, good pace, variations, you name it...he had it all. The skills you look for in bowlers in LOIs in right now, he was the master of them 20 years back. Plus the added benefit of being a left armer, he is the most complete ODI fast bowler surely. 

 

[raki05]

11 hours ago, rock777 said:

Using your logic  grant elliot  is better than rohit sharma

When did Grant Elliot win a test match.....BTW if I use your logic Munaf Patel is better bowler than younis and akhtar. However as we are talking about test Sir Aggy Trump all Pakistani bowlers except kaali daal. Whine bumrah is the goat coz he has 5 fer in all Sena countries which none of Pakistani bowler have...

[rkt.india]

34 minutes ago, Vickydev said:

As others have said, in test matches there were better bowlers. But for me he is up there at the top as an ODI bowler. As a left armer who could move the ball both ways, deadly with the new ball and clinical with the old, good pace, variations, you name it...he had it all. The skills you look for in bowlers in LOIs in right now, he was the master of them 20 years back. Plus the added benefit of being a left armer, he is the most complete ODI fast bowler surely. 

 

Even in ODIs, he is behind McGrath, Lee, Bond, Starc.

[Gollum]

Top 3 in ODIs, barely top 10 in tests and I am being very generous. Feasted a lot on weaker teams and lower order batsmen esp in red ball cricket. Genius bowler and great willpower considering his diabetes problem. But when it comes to rating Baki bowlers particularly the 80s and 90s ones, can't ignore the role of

 

Wasim, Waqar, Imran all have * next to their records. 

[rock777]

36 minutes ago, raki05 said:

When did Grant Elliot win a test match.....BTW if I use your logic Munaf Patel is better bowler than younis and akhtar. However as we are talking about test Sir Aggy Trump all Pakistani bowlers except kaali daal. Whine bumrah is the goat coz he has 5 fer in all Sena countries which none of Pakistani bowler have...

Son you did not read my post carefully logic i used was yours besides how many wc semifinals rohit sharma won  for india and  please if you can tell me the best ranked austalian batsmen in team which you defeated

[First class]

13 hours ago, rock777 said:

Great work sir you are most sensible poster on this forum for me wasim is  best left arm fast bowler of all time and in overall just behind malcom marshal 

Waqar was better than Akram. 

[Vickydev]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Even in ODIs, he is behind McGrath, Lee, Bond, Starc.

I can accept McGrath maybe, the rest you are really overrating. While they may have better stats but Wasim could make the best batsmen of his generation look like utter fools, while Lee, Starc have been schooled by the likes of Uthappa and Iyer. Shane Bond though was very dangerous, he had a really short career. Obviously his stats would look convoluted compared to someone with over 4 times his matches.

[raki05]

1 hour ago, rock777 said:

Son you did not read my post carefully logic i used was yours besides how many wc semifinals rohit sharma won  for india and  please if you can tell me the best ranked austalian batsmen in team which you defeated

Grand son use upper area of your body i was talking about test and then you squeeze in this Grant elliot comparison. Just to educate you again as the toopic is on bowler. Bumrah is the goat bowler from subcontinent as he has 5fer in all the sena country which none of Pakistani bowler have as of now and can dream of.

Brmrah

-

-

-

Imran

Kapil

Sir Aggy

Srinath

Akram

-

 

 

Prasad

Munaf

Younis

Akhtar

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, Vickydev said:

I can accept McGrath maybe, the rest you are really overrating. While they may have better stats but Wasim could make the best batsmen of his generation look like utter fools, while Lee, Starc have been schooled by the likes of Uthappa and Iyer. Shane Bond though was very dangerous, he had a really short career. Obviously his stats would look convoluted compared to someone with over 4 times his matches.

In today's cricket, any batsman can school any bowl. That's how good the batsmanship is these days. Wasim would not have been any different today with no reverse swing, flat pitches, big bats, monster hitters etc. Any bowler averaging 20-21 in today's LOI cricket is a legit GOAT.