We celebrate Ashwin for his home test dominance - but Rangana Herath for SL has been equally dominant ( if not better ) - Indian hype ?

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Doesn't work in cricket.

 

It's so easy that any XYZ can play N number of matches and replicate top performances.

 

Only if cricketing performances were linear and extrapolation was so easy.

 

Good players, which Axar, Ashwin, etc. (no one is talking about xyz unless you think this group is), are, can appear great (esp. to their fans) because of playing mostly in certain conditions 

[ShoonyaSifar]

He is a genuine legend as well. No two ways about it. Not as celebrated like other Sri Lankan legends but that's okay. He carried the Lankan attack on his own for almost a decade in a period of transition for them. 

 

In fact, till just 6 months ago, he would have been ahed of Ashwin on most bowling stats. Kudos to Ashwin for doing what he has in Aus and in this series, but that takes nothing away from Herath's achievements.

[Trichromatic]

23 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Good players, which Axar, Ashwin, etc. (no one is talking about xyz unless you think this group is), are, can appear great (esp. to their fans) because of playing mostly in certain conditions 

 

Axar has played 3 tests, Ashwin has proved himself over 78 tests.

 

Can you quantify the term mostly here? How does Ashwin play mostly in certain conditions only and how is that mostly different from other bowlers in history of cricket?

[zen]

21 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Axar has played 3 tests, Ashwin has proved himself over 78 tests.

 

Can you quantify the term mostly here? How does Ashwin play mostly in certain conditions only and how is that mostly different from other bowlers in history of cricket?

 

"mostly" = home 

 

 

 

[nevada]

Actually, Ashwin has been massively bashed for home dominance and going AWOL abroad/ doing well in only 1-2 games and physically falling apart in later matches. He has turned this around with a good show in Australia, which obviously boosted his popularity. Plus he is media savvy with video production which makes fans feel a closer connection. Herath got plenty of praise in his time - much was written about how he stepped in and became a match winner for them stepping into the void created by Murali's retirement. Despite getting regular chances at the late age of 32-33 after Murali retired, Herath played till 39, taking most of his wickets in this period. 

[zen]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

 

What? How does number show that Ashwin played mostly at home and that mostly is different from others?

 

Simple deduction (I am assuming people know Ashwin average which is closer to his home avg)

[Trichromatic]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Simple deduction (I am assuming people know Ashwin average which is closer to his home avg)

 

It is same case for others also. Their averages are closer to home avg.

[zen]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

 

It is same case for others also. Their averages are closer to home avg.

 

Which highlights my original point 

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Assumption of the thread is that Herath didn't have same hype at home.

 

And we are trying to answer that assumption.

 

But is that assumption even correct? Herath was always considered big threat even when SL were defending low totals.

And that is because Ashwin outperformed Herath in his own conditions when the two played. So, how can Herath get the same hype as Ashwin?

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

Which highlights my original point 

 

How?

[Real McCoy]

2 hours ago, zen said:

 

"mostly" = home 

 

 

 

 

Can you apply the same logic to ChePu who averages 37 away and 56 at home a difference of 19

[Nikola]

3 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

 

Can you apply the same logic to ChePu who averages 37 away and 56 at home a difference of 19

 

Wait how can you do that? Pujara is best Indian batsman since 1990s. Shame guys like smith & kohli are playing in ChePu's era.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Nikola

[Gollum]

OP needs to be specific in these kind of threads, who is he addressing: ICF, Indian fans or the wider cricket community. And it is better to take performances beyond home tests, extend the scope of the discussion. Anyway others have already done that, I'll follow their lead. 

 

If it is ICF, isn't it obvious? This is an Indian forum, we follow mostly Indian matches, discuss Indian cricketers and our national team 90% of the time. We also bash our players more than others . Anyway this happens everywhere, PeePee mainly for Pak cricketers, bigfooty for Aussies, the Lankan, WI and BD boards last time I checked were even more parochial. That is the nature of most of these forums and SM spaces. Obviously we will celebrate our guys more, never mind some of the self-loathing coolies we have here. 

 

If it is Indian fans in a more general sense, apart from obvious reasons, people tend to rate players who have done well against their team. That is why Moeen, Curran, Jamieson etc. get more hype from our fans. Superior cricketers like Herath, Rabada, Stokes not so much because of their bang average record against India. For latter 2, IPL exploits have improved their profile in recent times but mainly talking about those who follow test cricket in our country. Apart from that 4th innings in Galle (would never have gone that far if we had DRS) Herath has been treated like a net bowler by our batsmen. He was never seen as a credible threat, we were more wary of Sanga, Angelo, Dilshan, Mahela than Herath irrespective of pitch let's be honest. I am sure this feeling is prevalent everywhere....Aussies will always respect VVS over Dravid/Kallis, same with the English and Graeme Smith. 

 

Moreover Herath was a boring operator who relied on attrition/accuracy, not alone in this regard...guys like him, Kallis, Dravid, Pujara, McGrath aren't as fun to follow as artists/swashbucklers/magicians like Sehwag, Martyn, Anderson, Ashwin. Again not an India specific thing, most neutrals will prefer to watch Ashwin with his guile, variations, tricks, not a knock on Herath (or similar bowlers), what the Lankan does is bloody difficult and results show the value of those skills/efforts but just not box office entertainment. For some players we want to follow every ball live, for others we check cricbuzz every now and then.

 

Another thing we must consider is Herath will always be under the shadow of Murali....though all his wickets were clean, he just can't fight the inevitable. The moment someone says SL, cricket, spin....99.99% cricket fans will think of Murali, just the way it is. Difficult to stand out when there is a titan like Murali playing the same role, with overlapping career and just 6 years elder to Herath!!!! Luckily for Ashwin there was no Murali like figure preceding him or in his initial years, in fact 2008-11 was a phase where we were struggling to find spin options in the absence of Kumble and a declined Harbhajan. Ashwin literally came as a blessing back then. 

 

Next question is what is Herath's USP? For Ashwin it is the fact that he is the most successful bowler (ever, pace or spin) against LHBs, and if he plays another 20-25 tests his record won't be broken unless you have a demigod taking 1000+ test wickets in the future. Also there is the small matter of him winning 8 man of the series awards, just behind Murali and Kallis. Actually if you remove BD, Zim (thus limiting to top 8 opponents) Ashwin is joint highest MOTS award winner in the history of the sport. 

 

Then there is another section you know who I am talking about, most of them folks almost always try to run down Indian cricketers, our achievements, records etc. Jealousy, superiority complex, maybe a mixture of both......they were so used to seeing us as timid whipping boys throughout the 90s, it annoys them to see a strong Indian cricket team with swagger and badass, undiplomatic players. You'll notice that they still like soft-spoken accha bacchas like Pujara and Rahane but when it comes to a few like Kohli, Ashwin who break the mould of how they perceive Indian players should carry themselves....big problem. They don't miss opportunities to downplay Ashwin but hail these Yasirs and Heraths. Herath no doubt better than Yasir but no one talks about his overseas record, much poorer than Ashwin's and not just in SENA. Anyway for me stats aren't everything, Herath's numbers must be looked at closely with context (I rate him highly, not my intention to downplay him or anything like that), many statsguru warriors post their stats here without context, lot of useless date IMO. Coming to these usual suspects, when rating Indian players they'll bash Ashwin for his overseas failures while pretending Yasir and Herath's overseas numbers are just fine. They still talk about Kohli's failures in Eng, NZ but when it comes to Williamson, his poor overseas record raises no eyebrow, neither does the weak team bullying (check the skew yourselves), sab changa si. If Ashwin picks wickets on Indian decks, they'll say it is a rank turner but since Kohli got a 100 on the same pitch it is also a patta. Schrodinger's cat jaise....Indian pitches are pattas and rank turners at the same time.  So OP, Ashwin isn't celebrated that much for his record outside Indian forums, same with Jadeja. But more commonly non-Indians escape scrutiny and get undeserved praise. It is up to you whether you want to comply with outside narrative or back your guys. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Gollum

[zen]

6 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

How?

By picking bulk of wkts in certain conditions 

[zen]

6 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

 

Can you apply the same logic to ChePu who averages 37 away and 56 at home a difference of 19

As mentioned on threads abc and xyz, Pujara has turned it around by performing in SENA  in 3-4 series in a cluster batting in the difficult top order  

 

Let Ashwin (or whoever) have 2-3 good series & 1 great one. I will count the recent Aus series as good for Ashwin (though Sundar did well too but only played 1 game v a relatively struggling Aus line up so Ashwin wasn’t missed) so a few more like that + a great one and we can overlook his “avg”  

Edited March 8, 2021 by zen

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, zen said:

As mentioned on threads abc and xyz, Pujara has turned it around by performing in SENA  in 3-4 series in a cluster batting in the difficult top order  

 

Let Ashwin (or whoever) have 2-3 good series & 1 great one. I will count the recent Aus series as good for Ashwin (though Sundar did well too but only played 1 game v a relatively struggling Aus line up so Ashwin wasn’t missed) so a few more like that + a great one and we can overlook his “avg”  

from what I recall, ashwin's avg in SENA over the past few yrs is around 30. that's pretty good for a spinner since none of them (barring Oz to an extent) are conducive to spin

[zen]

21 minutes ago, Vijy said:

from what I recall, ashwin's avg in SENA over the past few yrs is around 30. that's pretty good for a spinner since none of them (barring Oz to an extent) are conducive to spin

 

In a relatively short period, avgs can be influenced by a couple of good tests here and there for e.g. , which is why I talked about 2-3 good series + a great one (even for batsmen) if your overall record in SENA is not impressive ... As for Ashwin, 

 

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
GH Vihari	2018-2021	9	7	45.3	9	132	5	3/37	3/38	26.40	2.90	54.6	0	0
RA Jadeja	2018-2021	6	10	218.3	39	609	23	4/62	7/258	26.47	2.78	57.0	0	0
Kuldeep Yadav	2018-2019	2	2	40.5	7	143	5	5/99	5/99	28.60	3.50	49.0	1	0
R Ashwin	2018-2021	11	20	466.1	89	1169	39	4/55	7/121	29.97	2.50	71.7	0	0
Washington Sundar	2021-2021	1	2	49.0	7	169	4	3/89	4/169	42.25	3.44	73.5	0	0

 

Since 2018, even though his avg is around 30 (possibly riding the wave w/ an overall good Ind attack), Ashwin has the 2nd worst avg and SR among Ind spinners in SENA ... It is not too late, so Ind spinners like Ashwin and Jadeja can aim to add a few good series 

Edited March 8, 2021 by zen

[Vijy]

32 minutes ago, zen said:

 

In a relatively short period, avgs can be influenced by a couple of good tests here and there for e.g. , which is why I talked about 2-3 good series + a great one (even for batsmen) if your overall record in SENA is not impressive ... As for Ashwin, 

 

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
GH Vihari	2018-2021	9	7	45.3	9	132	5	3/37	3/38	26.40	2.90	54.6	0	0
RA Jadeja	2018-2021	6	10	218.3	39	609	23	4/62	7/258	26.47	2.78	57.0	0	0
Kuldeep Yadav	2018-2019	2	2	40.5	7	143	5	5/99	5/99	28.60	3.50	49.0	1	0
R Ashwin	2018-2021	11	20	466.1	89	1169	39	4/55	7/121	29.97	2.50	71.7	0	0
Washington Sundar	2021-2021	1	2	49.0	7	169	4	3/89	4/169	42.25	3.44	73.5	0	0

 

Since 2018, even though his avg is around 30 (possibly riding the wave w/ an overall good Ind attack), Ashwin has the 2nd worst avg and SR among Ind spinners in SENA ... It is not too late, so Ind spinners like Ashwin and Jadeja can aim to add a few good series 

2nd worst doesn't mean much given that the rest are either part-timers or have hardly played. he is behind jaddu, which makes sense because jadeja has indeed been fantastic. our unsung MVP in many cases.

[zen]

7 minutes ago, Vijy said:

2nd worst doesn't mean much given that the rest are either part-timers or have hardly played. he is behind jaddu, which makes sense because jadeja has indeed been fantastic. our unsung MVP in many cases.

 

It could be more like others should have bowled or played more ... Ind may need to chose its spinner, esp. if only 1, more wisely 

[rangeelaraja]

7 hours ago, Gollum said:

OP needs to be specific in these kind of threads, who is he addressing: ICF, Indian fans or the wider cricket community. And it is better to take performances beyond home tests, extend the scope of the discussion. Anyway others have already done that, I'll follow their lead. 

 

If it is ICF, isn't it obvious? This is an Indian forum, we follow mostly Indian matches, discuss Indian cricketers and our national team 90% of the time. We also bash our players more than others . Anyway this happens everywhere, PeePee mainly for Pak cricketers, bigfooty for Aussies, the Lankan, WI and BD boards last time I checked were even more parochial. That is the nature of most of these forums and SM spaces. Obviously we will celebrate our guys more, never mind some of the self-loathing coolies we have here. 

 

If it is Indian fans in a more general sense, apart from obvious reasons, people tend to rate players who have done well against their team. That is why Moeen, Curran, Jamieson etc. get more hype from our fans. Superior cricketers like Herath, Rabada, Stokes not so much because of their bang average record against India. For latter 2, IPL exploits have improved their profile in recent times but mainly talking about those who follow test cricket in our country. Apart from that 4th innings in Galle (would never have gone that far if we had DRS) Herath has been treated like a net bowler by our batsmen. He was never seen as a credible threat, we were more wary of Sanga, Angelo, Dilshan, Mahela than Herath irrespective of pitch let's be honest. I am sure this feeling is prevalent everywhere....Aussies will always respect VVS over Dravid/Kallis, same with the English and Graeme Smith. 

 

Moreover Herath was a boring operator who relied on attrition/accuracy, not alone in this regard...guys like him, Kallis, Dravid, Pujara, McGrath aren't as fun to follow as artists/swashbucklers/magicians like Sehwag, Martyn, Anderson, Ashwin. Again not an India specific thing, most neutrals will prefer to watch Ashwin with his guile, variations, tricks, not a knock on Herath (or similar bowlers), what the Lankan does is bloody difficult and results show the value of those skills/efforts but just not box office entertainment. For some players we want to follow every ball live, for others we check cricbuzz every now and then.

 

Another thing we must consider is Herath will always be under the shadow of Murali....though all his wickets were clean, he just can't fight the inevitable. The moment someone says SL, cricket, spin....99.99% cricket fans will think of Murali, just the way it is. Difficult to stand out when there is a titan like Murali playing the same role, with overlapping career and just 6 years elder to Herath!!!! Luckily for Ashwin there was no Murali like figure preceding him or in his initial years, in fact 2008-11 was a phase where we were struggling to find spin options in the absence of Kumble and a declined Harbhajan. Ashwin literally came as a blessing back then. 

 

Next question is what is Herath's USP? For Ashwin it is the fact that he is the most successful bowler (ever, pace or spin) against LHBs, and if he plays another 20-25 tests his record won't be broken unless you have a demigod taking 1000+ test wickets in the future. Also there is the small matter of him winning 8 man of the series awards, just behind Murali and Kallis. Actually if you remove BD, Zim (thus limiting to top 8 opponents) Ashwin is joint highest MOTS award winner in the history of the sport. 

 

Then there is another section you know who I am talking about, most of them folks almost always try to run down Indian cricketers, our achievements, records etc. Jealousy, superiority complex, maybe a mixture of both......they were so used to seeing us as timid whipping boys throughout the 90s, it annoys them to see a strong Indian cricket team with swagger and badass, undiplomatic players. You'll notice that they still like soft-spoken accha bacchas like Pujara and Rahane but when it comes to a few like Kohli, Ashwin who break the mould of how they perceive Indian players should carry themselves....big problem. They don't miss opportunities to downplay Ashwin but hail these Yasirs and Heraths. Herath no doubt better than Yasir but no one talks about his overseas record, much poorer than Ashwin's and not just in SENA. Anyway for me stats aren't everything, Herath's numbers must be looked at closely with context (I rate him highly, not my intention to downplay him or anything like that), many statsguru warriors post their stats here without context, lot of useless date IMO. Coming to these usual suspects, when rating Indian players they'll bash Ashwin for his overseas failures while pretending Yasir and Herath's overseas numbers are just fine. They still talk about Kohli's failures in Eng, NZ but when it comes to Williamson, his poor overseas record raises no eyebrow, neither does the weak team bullying (check the skew yourselves), sab changa si. If Ashwin picks wickets on Indian decks, they'll say it is a rank turner but since Kohli got a 100 on the same pitch it is also a patta. Schrodinger's cat jaise....Indian pitches are pattas and rank turners at the same time.  So OP, Ashwin isn't celebrated that much for his record outside Indian forums, same with Jadeja. But more commonly non-Indians escape scrutiny and get undeserved praise. It is up to you whether you want to comply with outside narrative or back your guys. 

 

 

You guys completely miss the point. 

 

We have for the longest time accused Murali  ( and now Herath ) of getting 100's of cheap test wickets ( which he has no doubt).

 

But we don't apply the same standards to our spinnners who get their share of cheap wickets like Ashwin has.

 

Regarding Ashwin vs. Herath in Lanka - cannot judge someone just based on one head to head - he has succeeded against all other teams at home.

 

Just like Murali and Warne become powerless in India against our batters ( does not mean they are lesser bowlers - arguably 2 of the greatest spinners ever )