These Top order Collapses in last 2 series have been blessing in disguises

[Ankit_sharma03]

Our top 3 has been so good in ODI for a point that it affected our middle order as they use clean out series after series on their own and our middle order hardly use to get a bat, unless a pressure situation where all 3 crash and these guys had no runs in their kitty to have any confidence in them seleves

 

In NZ - it was iyer and rahul who came to rescue

In Aus - its pandya n jaddu 

 

Always say if these bilateral failures help team to grow its great, Kohli in his young days also benefitted from sachin resting, yuvi n sehwag on off form n fitness .  Rohit n dhawan took the opp when gambhir n sehwag lost their places.

One person failure is other opportunities , glad these guys are making use of it

 

Also time for top 3 to do some introspection , great players also needs to keep evolving...times are changing and so shud their approach 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Our top 3 has been so good in ODI for a point

Are they "so good" though?  I don't care how great their individual statistics are.  India is not the best ODI batting unit in the world - England are.  Heck we are arguably not even 2nd best.  If SA manage to put their best ODI XI on the field with AB, QdK, Faf, even they are likely to exceed India at times.  England consistently puts up more 350+ totals than India.  And there's a reason for that.  Why is England, with the supposedly lower calibre of batsmen in the top 6 - more productive as a unit?

 

Why does our top 3 get so much glory, when they regularly eat majority of the deliveries and end up "setting the platform" for a sub-par total - in context of the modern game - a 330 is not a great total. Because it doesn't provide your bowlers with that scoreboard pressure that induces mistakes, doesn't provide them that cushion that even a high-scoring partnership for 10 overs or so doesn't mean that the game is over.  

 

Way back in CT tournament 2017, India lost a league stage game to SL, where Umesh was in his spraygun mode as 3rd seamer, and Jadeja was ripped apart by Chandimal so bad that I think he didn't even bowl full 10 overs - and India failed to defend 337 or something like that.  And Dhawan had scored a century at barely run-a-ball or slightly worse.  I remember arguing with everyone on 2 points - that India needed to go to wrist-spinners instead of Jaddu, and that Indian batsmen were underachieving with the bat and needed to change tactics.  And that the change was such a big one that it will take years to 'practice' the new batting method to execute it on a consistent basis.  I don't remember which posters specifically, but a lot of folks were arguing back with me, insulting me by pointing that Jaddu was previous CT "MVP" - never mind that the rules for middle overs (4 outfielders) had changed since then.  

 

Just like there have been a handful of noisy empty vessels denigrating Pandya's batting - simply because he also bowled, and didn't get a chance to bat for longer periods. Now that he has put up a body of work over time, folks will come around.  

 

I have said it before, and will say it again.  Virat Kohli is not stupid - if armchair  cricket fans can see the trend; if England are implementing the modern day batting template for 3 years and win the WC with it, its not as if he does not know what's what.  And its not as if India doesn't have batsmen who are good enough to implement such a strategy.  Out of all the teams in cricket, cumulatively, counting the batsmen in the XI, the squad, and on the fringe of making it - Indian batting bench strength is the deepest in terms of class and talent.  But the results show that we are not even second best in terms of runs output as a team. 

 

There is a clear and obvious reason for that.  Tactics and batting strategy chosen by the team leadership - Virat Kohli.  And he does that knowingly.  Because the current strategy provides justification and excuses for the top 3 batsmen to bat selfishly in the name of "setting up the platform".  And Virat can continue to execute his "risk-free" ODI batting style, and continue to rack up individual milestones of "greatness".  Like fastest to 12000 runs in number of innings, and other such useless "records".  

 

Even after this series, you will still have ignorant fans who miss the forest for the trees, and will say - what do you want him to do, top order failed around Virat, "its not his fault".  And other such silliness.  

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by sandeep

[Serpico]

this also calls for the rotation policy from now on in top 3.. dhawan-rohit-kohli shouldn't play together in any series. lets rest each of them in a series and see how the new guys cope with it

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, Serpico said:

this also calls for the rotation policy from now on in top 3.. dhawan-rohit-kohli shouldn't play together in any series. lets rest each of them in a series and see how the new guys cope with it

 

Rotation is for the 2nd class members of the team.  And bowlers.  Top 3 "Chaudharys" will only 'rest' if they want it for non-cricket reasons.  Not for them the inconvenience of giving up chances to rack up individual landmarks and preserve their "brand" value.  How much money does Virat get per Instagram post again?  Can't have those ad dollars starting to chase after the "next young hot talent" in the Indian team.  Got to make sure that they stay a notch below.  Aukaat.  

 

If that means that a KL Rahul - who has a strong case to bat in the top 3 if not the top 2, has to be shuttled around the white ball team, so be it.  If that means a young Rishabh Pant is mishandled in the T20 squad even though his balls per boundary metric in T20 is world-class? so be it.  If it means that a Manish Pandey who showed all the way back in 2015 that he had the skill to be a permanent fixture in the middle order as long as he batted at #3 or 4, is made to wait in the wings? So be it.  Why give him the chance to put up centuries in the middle order? Make him bat at #6 even though he's not really suited for it.  If it means that the likes of Prithvi Shaw, Shubman Gill are only given one-off random games instead of proper extended runs and the chance to establish themselves in the white ball team?  So be it. 

 

What's the rush?? Let Virat and his 2 "senior" buddies milk the Indian market for a couple of more years.  The "juniors" can cool their heels on the bench.  Its all about them $$$$

Edited December 2, 2020 by sandeep

[coffee_rules]

Iyer is a total failure at 4. Rahul at 5 has no MO bat temperment. His dismissal today was a sorry one, given his upgrade in role, he should bat more responsibly. No matter what we tinker with Pandya at 6 or Jadeja at 7, our top 5 is not good enough esp when Kohli scratches around like this. If Rohit is not in , we should not let any experimentation with opening. It has to be KL. He has earned his chips in the WC. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Are they "so good" though?  I don't care how great their individual statistics are.  India is not the best ODI batting unit in the world - England are.  Heck we are arguably not even 2nd best.  If SA manage to put their best ODI XI on the field with AB, QdK, Faf, even they are likely to exceed India at times.  England consistently puts up more 350+ totals than India.  And there's a reason for that.  Why is England, with the supposedly lower calibre of batsmen in the top 6 - more productive as a unit?

 

i said till a point, now they need to evolve 

 

7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Why does our top 3 get so much glory, when they regularly eat majority of the deliveries and end up "setting the platform" for a sub-par total - in context of the modern game - a 330 is not a great total. Because it doesn't provide your bowlers with that scoreboard pressure that induces mistakes, doesn't provide them that cushion that even a high-scoring partnership for 10 overs or so doesn't mean that the game is over.  

 

till the time 330 was a great total they were great but not anymore . To be fair to them at start they had middle order issues with rayudu, raina kind of options and dhoni, raina, yuvi at decline and jaddu at 7 but now their is no excuse

TBH if u want make these totals unachievable u need maxwell, pandyas, pollard and russell kind 

 

We are country obsessed with numbers- i always wonder bevan n symonds wont have gotten same respect had they played for India 

 

7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

I have said it before, and will say it again.  Virat Kohli is not stupid - if armchair  cricket fans can see the trend; if England are implementing the modern day batting template for 3 years and win the WC with it, its not as if he does not know what's what.  And its not as if India doesn't have batsmen who are good enough to implement such a strategy.  Out of all the teams in cricket, cumulatively, counting the batsmen in the XI, the squad, and on the fringe of making it - Indian batting bench strength is the deepest in terms of class and talent.  But the results show that we are not even second best in terms of runs output as a team. 

 

kohli biggest problem he wants to ensure safety ....that doesnt work and its affecting his batting as well 

Intent is whats missing with his side be india or RCB , seen devdutt bat in domestic was shocked to see his approach in IPL.

Sadly this is rubbing on guys like KL 

 

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Rahul at 5 has no MO bat temperment. His dismissal today was a sorry one, given his upgrade in role, he should bat more responsibly.

KL Rahul is a bloody diamond that Kohli is turning into burnt up coal unfit for even a barbeque.  He should have been a fixture in the top 3 for the last 3 years.  But nope.  those slots are mai baap ki jaagir.  Team fortunes are less important than Kuptaan Wrogn's "brand value".

[Lone Wolf]

Our Top 3 are not suitable for modern day batting anyway.  Dhawan is a free loader even a blind guy can see he's struggling with his reflexes.  He isn't able to play shots all around.  He's in the twilight of his career now like when Sehwag lost his hand eye coordination.  We should move on from him sooner & Gill or Mayank should be permanent feature.  Rohit has fitness issues & on last NZ tour as well after a 60 odd in a T20I he pulled his hamstring & got out of the tour.  So ideally our issues are going to be magnified in ODIs at least.  Kohli has S/R issues vs spin & is already going through a lean patch.

Our Batting line up demands some changes in middle & Top order. 

 

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Iyer is a total failure at 4. Rahul at 5 has no MO bat temperment. His dismissal today was a sorry one, given his upgrade in role, he should bat more responsibly. No matter what we tinker with Pandya at 6 or Jadeja at 7, our top 5 is not good enough esp when Kohli scratches around like this. If Rohit is not in , we should not let any experimentation with opening. It has to be KL. He has earned his chips in the WC. 

Rahul ia fine at either 4 or 5. Need a dasher fearless batsman as opener.

[zen]

Rohit, Dhawan & Kohli are overrated. And now also probably coming to a point where they are past their peak, leading to diminishing returns. 
 

Sooner or later many people will be asking for their blood too as their innings will make less and less impact for Ind (with other top teams having a process in place that allows them to post big totals).  

 

As they say, those who dig the grave for others, fall in it. 

[Amit228]

Few misfits still in our batting line-up...

Iyer has some glaring issues in his technique.. which SENA teams will exploit surely.. thai slapper needs to be shown door.. or he will turn into a liability..

 

Ishan kishan could be tried as a opener.. he can induce the required impetus in starting over in our loi team.

 

Insted of iyer...rahul should bat at no 4... Nd SKY should be included as in no 5.. no 6 being pandya.. no 7 jadeja..nd no 8 tewatia.. this batting line up with rohit nd kohli included will be hard to outbat by opposition..nd will hv batting firepower till no 8

[Jodonjo]

All bilaterals should be used as experimentation for icc events because we are probably not going to remember it anyways

[Lone Wolf]

11 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Rahul ia fine at either 4 or 5. Need a dasher fearless batsman as opener.

Ishan Kishan as an opener can work as a dasher & a lefti as well.  MI has done that successfully & their approach I think is spot on about LOIs.  I too think Dhawan & Rohit are too slow at the start & Dhawan is well past his best & slow reflexes he's a burden after Powerplay. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

15 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Rahul ia fine at either 4 or 5. Need a dasher fearless batsman as opener.

 

they dont identify the missing link, we pick next best name even when he brings nothing new and then cant even back them also .

Same no.4 situation like handeling this is

[Cricketics]

One thing I have noticed is that people are so high on t20s that they were finding it frustrating when our score was 70-1 in 13. Not every pitch in 370ish. We need to calm down and have faith in guys like Gill.

This pitch was a lot different from

the first two games. Here bowlers found enough in the pitch to use and enjoy the conditions to bowl their best deliveries, totally opposite to sydney tracks used in the first two matches.

 

We can’t look at Eng vs Saf t20 series scores and Wi Vs NZ scores and then come out and lash few of our young bats that they are battin slow comparitively. Keep t20 shyt away from 50 overs.

Things to do

- Replace Dhawan

- Replace Kohli as captain -  enough of him 

- Keep Rohit out untill he is fully fit. Infact let him earn his place(this guy was more interested in MI over India, let him earn his chance, try other youngsters before)

- Let Mayank, Shubman etc struggle whenever given chances. Still back them.

- Have variety in the bowling attack. Have sheer pace attack few times but if all together are not varying pace, bring in a bowler who has lesser pace but provides variety to the attack so that we don’t look one dimensional like we did in the first two ODI’s. Remember there was nothing wrong with the three fast bowlers who played in the first two games and we shouldn’t hesistate to try again. However, they have to vary or otherwise might look one dimensional together on flat tracks.

 

 

 

 

[Real McCoy]

41 minutes ago, sandeep said:

KL Rahul is a bloody diamond that Kohli is turning into burnt up coal unfit for even a barbeque.  He should have been a fixture in the top 3 for the last 3 years.  But nope.  those slots are mai baap ki jaagir.  Team fortunes are less important than Kuptaan Wrogn's "brand value".

I'm certain that Kohli is jealous of KLR when Viv commented on him being the next big thing in world cricket. He has repeatedly put Dhawan as the test opener and messed up a great talent. Didn't he score a 200 on debut. All the more reason Kohli needs to be removed from the captaincy. he has messed up with KLR and Pant. Gambo, Parthiv Patel and even Nehra are commenting on him. I wonder what the BCCI higher ups are doing when even a common fan can notice what he is doing to the team.

[rkt.india]

25 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Ishan Kishan as an opener can work as a dasher & a lefti as well.  MI has done that successfully & their approach I think is spot on about LOIs.  I too think Dhawan & Rohit are too slow at the start & Dhawan is well past his best & slow reflexes he's a burden after Powerplay. 

He and Shaw are two options worth a punt.

[sandeep]

25 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Replace Dhawan

Didn't expect you to join the bandwagon of "dump Dhawan".  He's not done yet.  Not in ODIs.

[Cricketics]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Didn't expect you to join the bandwagon of "dump Dhawan".  He's not done yet.  Not in ODIs.

I like to try other players. We have about 3 years before 50 over wc. I don’t want to use the term dump and trash for players like Rohit and Dhawan who have won India enough games with their bats. But for now we must try some youngsters . We can keep them in squads but this is a good time to also give more chances to youngsters.  There is no reason to say that  career of Roht and Dhawan is over. They will still produce runs but it is important when games take place in India, we are giving young guys enough chance as the world cup is going to take palce in India. These young guys will become 25-27 very quickly and will start getting forgotten after few failures and hence it makes it even more important to give them chances before next set of under 19 players come and shine and become a threat for new spots. This is the reason that it is important that once a world cup ends, se senior players must make way for few youngsters. That doesn’t mean we throw away the seniors and never pick them, but it does mean that seniors don’t hold onto their position forever. We must start rebuilding for 2023.

 

One thing we all know is that India is going to host the world cup, spinners will come in handy and most players will do well. Lets prepare th young brigade so that they are mature and reliable by end of 2022. 
 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Rahul ia fine at either 4 or 5. Need a dasher fearless batsman as opener.

 

Not sure he is a #5. We need a solid #4 in case of 50/2 types. He should open just like in WC or come in at #6 like Dhoni. We can probably have to promote Pandya to #5.