Harbhajan's helpful pitches theory holds weight

[mancalledsting]

Disclaimer: I really like Ashwin and think he's a good guy and excellent cricketer. I am also against ex-cricketers undermining current cricketers. Although, purely on an academic point, the fact that the likes of Joe Root, Jack Leach and Akshar Patel can rock up on bag five-fors willy nilly lends huge weight to the argument that Ashwin/Jadeja's amazing home record has been significantly enhanced by helpful bowling wickets c.f. 2010 test series at home vs NZ where Kane Williamson (debutant who later struggled in India when it started to turn) and Bhaji himself were getting hundreds. 

[R!TTER]

It does but you also have to remember DRS, take these two - pitches & reviews Harbhajan easily gets 50+ more wickets & probably at 2-4 less avg.

[maniac]

1 minute ago, mancalledsting said:

Disclaimer: I really like Ashwin and think he's a good guy and excellent cricketer. I am also against ex-cricketers undermining current cricketers. Although, purely on an academic point, the fact that the likes of Joe Root, Jack Leach and Akshar Patel can rock up on bag five-fors willy nilly lends huge weight to the argument that Ashwin/Jadeja's amazing home record has been significantly enhanced by helpful bowling wickets c.f. 2010 test series at home vs NZ where Kane Williamson (debutant who later struggled in India when it started to turn) and Bhaji himself were getting hundreds. 

By the same token Ashwin also has 5 100’s while batting on those same pitches. How does that raise his profile as an overall legend of the game?

 

Rohit has the 2nd highest average after Bradman at home, time to May be look at that differently?

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

It does but you also have to remember DRS, take these two - pitches & reviews Harbhajan easily gets 50+ more wickets & probably at 2-4 less avg.

No doosra, take that factor as well in your calculation. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Gollum

[R!TTER]

Just now, maniac said:

Rohit has the 2nd highest average after Bradman at home, time to May be look at that differently?

Relative strengths of team they've faced at home, back then we had ATG Oz - no one comes close to that side today! At or near peak SA, who were great in India. Pak, a little bit of Eng/NZ or even SL. Outside of Bangers there were no true minnows, Zim only went down dost 2003 IIRC.

[R!TTER]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

No doosra, take that factor as well in your calculation. 

Harbhajan didn't use the doosra as much, that was more of Ajmal/Murali key weapon.

[Clarke]

How did Jumbo manage 600, on batting wickets ? Those guys had their helpful tracks too, Bhajji just sounds sore. 

 

As mentioned above, DRS & straightening benefitted either side.

[bowl_out]

Harbhajan got his fair share of helpful wickets too.. Remember he got a 5-fer in the Mumbai game where Clarke picked 6/9.

 

[maniac]

9 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Relative strengths of team they've faced at home, back then we had ATG Oz - no one comes close to that side today! At or near peak SA, who were great in India. Pak, a little bit of Eng/NZ or even SL. Outside of Bangers there were no true minnows, Zim only went down dost 2003 IIRC.

Aus have not gone down, their batting sure but their current bowling  line up collectively is their best in history.

 

Nzl has become a top side  fromwhat middling team.

 

India has raised its profile with its fast bowling stock.

 

You  can nitpick on any player. Bradman played 1 team all his life and 2 conditions and outside of England and Australia rest of the teams in his time made up numbers.

 

You can pick the same holes in Viv Richards and the WI bowlers without the bouncer rules.

 

We can go on and on in the rabbit hole.

 

A player is rated on how he performs in comparison with his peers and by that account Ashwin has earned his ATG tag. You can’t nitpick on Ashwin and not have all those parameters for others.

 

[ash]

You cannot compare players from diff decades tbh. Both Bhajji and Ashwin are great bowlers but what separates them is the consistency. Harbhajan was thriving till Kumble was there to support him and with Doosra. After that he tapered off. Ashwin seems to be opposite, he is getting better with time. 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by ash

[G_B_]

Drs and umpires call has really changed the game

[SK_IH]

BC agar yehi sochne lage tou every bowlers achievements is flawed. Anyways, as always the real worth of bowler will be known once he is gone. 

We should all remember Harbhajan who has had the habit of moaning about pitches, was booted out of the squad which means he was never indispensable to the Indian XI. Ashwin on the other hand is greatest match winner since Anil Kumble. I don't want to imagine Indian home series without Ashwin. And am not even taking his runs into contention. He is a behemoth of Indian cricket. Stop putting riders to his achievements & enjoy his genius.

[sage]

Harbhajan probably had a higher batting average in his last 20 matches than Pujara or Rahane. More 100s at least. Very unfortunate to get booted!

[R!TTER]

10 minutes ago, maniac said:

Aus have not gone down, their batting sure but their current bowling  line up collectively is their best in history.

Your kidding yourself if you think their bowling is anywhere near as good as peak Oz.

 

Yeah NZ has gotten better.

 

Sure.

 

I'm not just nitpicking - you can see the games from back then - how neutral umpires simply didn't give the likes of Hayden, Cook out when they used to sweep with a front foot plonked done the road. They definitely would not play as many sweeps today & certainly the likes of Kumble/Harbhajan would get a lot more lbw wickets - that's just a fact the mindset of umpires has changed massively & so has the way batters play spin. Just look at Root, one missed slog sweep & he's hardly played that shot since then. Why do you think India don't play sweep as often - hint it's not because they're great players of spin or just because they only know to play one way!

 

Yeah & in the context of that debate it'd be just as valid.

 

Happy to go down with you 

 

10 minutes ago, maniac said:

A player is rated on how he performs in comparison with his peers and by that account Ashwin has earned his ATG tag. You can’t nitpick on Ashwin and not have all those parameters for others.

 

Yeah except I didn't nitpick on Ashwin - I said Harbhajan could've gotten more wickets on helpful surfaces with DRS. If you think that's a shade on Ashwin - so be it.

Edited February 25, 2021 by R!TTER

[gattaca]

All people sad about pitch go cry in a corner with the British. 

[Trichromatic]

34 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

It does but you also have to remember DRS, take these two - pitches & reviews Harbhajan easily gets 50+ more wickets & probably at 2-4 less avg.

 

And he would have been banned from bowling, reduce 250 wickets there.

[maniac]

7 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

 

Yeah except I didn't nitpick on Ashwin - I said Harbhajan could've gotten more wickets on helpful surfaces with DRS. If you think that's a shade on Ashwin - so be it.

Harbhajan did not play on pattas. He had helpful pitches too, Indian batsman smacking the hapless goras and then spinners running though them is as proud of an Indian tradition as Holi,Diwali etc.

 

You would have had a point if Ashwin or Jadeja are getting Adani ends in ever game and Harbhajan was playing on Chinnaswamy type pitches. It’s just the nostalgia that’s making us say that.

 

Ashwin had a mix of flat,minefields and sporting pitches as well, May be a few more than Bhajji but it’s only as they say in Hindi 19-20 ka farak hai max. Ashwin has reached 400 in 30 less tests than Bhajji, are you (not you personally) saying that the pitches have gone down by that much.

[zen]

I put almost all top Ind spinners since 1990 (once I have seen in detail) including Bhajji in the 35-45 averaging category (irrespective of their feat at home) 

[maniac]

20 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

Drs and umpires call has really changed the game

Now this is a great argument to say why bowlers have it relatively easy these days.

[R!TTER]

7 minutes ago, maniac said:

Harbhajan did not play on pattas. He had helpful pitches too, Indian batsman smacking the hapless goras and then spinners running though them is as proud of an Indian tradition as Holi,Diwali etc.

You're going really extreme on the "contrarian" viewpoint! Contrary to facts btw 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team India

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2011

Team runs less than or equal to 200

Totals in terms of batting team

Ordered by matches played (descending)

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Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
England	2012-2021	8	3	5	0	0	0.6	15.80	2.68	10	195	81
West Indies	2011-2018	7	0	6	0	1	0	16.75	3.24	9	196	127
South Africa	2015-2019	6	0	6	0	0	0	14.96	2.27	10	191	79
Australia	2013-2017	4	0	4	0	0	0	13.60	2.67	4	164	112
New Zealand	2012-2016	3	0	3	0	0	0	16.82	2.51	4	197	153
Bangladesh	2019-2019	2	0	2	0	0	0	15.55	3.46	3	195	106
Sri Lanka	2017-2017	2	0	1	0	1	0	14.17	3.17	2	166	166
Afghanistan	2018-2018	1	0	1	0	0	0	10.60	3.18	2	109	103

 

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Opposition team India

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2001 and 31 Dec 2010

Team runs less than or equal to 200

Totals in terms of batting team

Ordered by team name (ascending)

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Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Australia	2001-2010	5	1	3	0	1	0.333	18.60	3.25	5	195	93
England	2001-2008	4	1	1	0	2	1	22.33	2.29	4	191	181
New Zealand	2010-2010	2	0	1	0	1	0	18.57	3.05	3	193	175
Pakistan	2007-2007	1	0	0	0	1	0	23.14	4.50	1	162	-
South Africa	2004-2008	2	0	1	0	1	0	20.71	2.42	2	169	121
Sri Lanka	2005-2005	1	0	0	0	1	0	42.00	3.90	1	168	-
West Indies	2002-2002	2	0	2	0	0	0	17.06	2.29	3	188	157
Zimbabwe	2002-2002	2	0	2	0	0	0	16.40	2.10	2	182	146

Edited February 25, 2021 by R!TTER