Why can't India produce white ball great spinners?

[Majestic]

India is considered as a paradise of spinners. Yet, we don't have a single genuine great white ball spinner in our LOI history.

 

In contrast, our neighborhood produces high quality spinners one after another.

 

From current gen,

 

Pakistan - Shadab

Sri Lanka - Hasaranga

Afghanistan - Rashid

 

All these are out and out match winners in all conditions while we produce the likes of Chahal, Ashwin, Axar, Sundar and Jadeja. Why can't we produce a bowler of this calibre? Even in past too, teams like Pakistan and Sri Lanka have produced Saqlain and Murali and Afridi is another T20I ATG.

 

Inspite of all this, we go with the theory of 3 pacers+ 2 spinners every single time.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Majestic

[the don]

I think over the years Indian spinners have been too classical. Excelling in test cricket. Not enough unorthodoxy. Also most indian spinners are specialist bowlers with weak secondary skills.

[Chakdephatte]

Because they feel they don't need to. Their home base is India. They play IPL in India. Foreigner spinners develop variations when they travel to India or play T20 league. IPL doesn't only give them experience, but also serves as an incentive for them to improve to be selected.

 

Only if our spinners are allowed to compete in foreign leagues, they will develop new skills. @Majestic

Edited November 3, 2022 by Chakdephatte

[R!TTER]

It has a lot to do with captains as well, after MS gave away captaincy Brat took over but he never backed spinners like MS did. For better or worse he was the best captain as far as spin was concerned, when Kuldeep/Chahal's honeymoon period got over Brat simply didn't back them especially Kuldeep! And everyone saw the results, if you don't back your spinners when they're down they'll never develop especially young/inexperienced ones! Warne always used to credit Border for his development & the faith AB put in him was unreal & that is why you had the legend of Shane Warne, it wasn't just because of his talent 

[Stan AF]

2 reasons.

 

Either we don't produce that talent or the talent is not being forefront to the team.

 

[Stan AF]

Also indian fans are ingloriously fickle minded along with the selectors and don't back talent for fear of criticism.

[Clarke]

Some interrelated points: 

 

i) We don't believe in specialization, I mean look at our openers and the likes of Ashwin/Jaddu playing T20s and tests. SKY is the sole white ball specialist who hasn't played a test in years, Arshdeep is a new one and they seem to stand much above other players (besides Kohli) in the XI wrt WC performance.  

 

ii) Our mindsets are conservative, we don't back the likes of Shaw or give Bishnoi a proper run. This affects other formats too, Pujara still being picked ahead of Sarfaraz. 

 

iii) IPL success is enough to get into the XI even though team management doesn't want you e.g. Chahal. Piyush Chawla was good enough to continue as a steady IPL bowler but nowhere near international level. The performance benchmark is lower & conditions aren't as diverse & testing as international cricket. 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I think we'll be fine in ODIs. Attacking spinners can do well there.

 

T20s require a lot of defensive bowling. Fast, flat and short.  And doing that consistently. Our spinners always want to flight a couple to a fuller length and get smashed . 

 

That doesn't work I T20s most of the time  

[vvvslaxman]

Bishnoi is a big miss. His skiddy deliveries would have been super quick here in OZ

[cricketfan28]

May be we should allow players to play other leagues.

[Vk1]

Rohit & kohli captain in IPL packing pacers in their squad - Dhoni relies on slow pitches.. wrist spinners with good googly like Bishnoi & Kuldeep are always playing for less fancied teams.. IPL is played to win IPL.. not to produce or enhance talent.. its a byproduct 

[Vk1]

22 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

they all have wrist spinners ,just not very good .Csk ,mi have likes of karn sharma,markande,none are up to the mark.

yes.. Rahul Chahar was promising but looks like he doesn't have higher ceiling.. very bad to see top franchises without good indian spinners

[IndianRenegade]

Bhisnoi gets dropped after being the best bowler vs Pakistan not only from the playing XL but also from the squad. 

 

Chahal gets picked in the team even without performance to back it up. Folks like chahal get rewarded for being mediocre & friends with the right people.

[Majestic]

19 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

Bhisnoi gets dropped after being the best bowler vs Pakistan not only from the playing XL but also from the squad. 

 

Chahal gets picked in the team even without performance to back it up. Folks like chahal get rewarded for being mediocre & friends with the right people.

One of the reason behind this is itself the lack of performance of other spinners. I know Bishnoi got dropped unfairly but think of previous year's WT20.

 

Chahal was not in the squad and there were 5 spinners in the squad. Yet none really was able to make a mark, R Chahar went downward since his name got announced for WT20 squad while VC looked innocuous. Ashwin also did nothing.

 

It turns out a case of Chahal being decent to good and rest being just decent with a bit of batting skills added to it.

[Adamant]

There have only been three White ball great spinners. 

 

Murali

Warne

Saqlain

 

All others are nowhere near them. So it's very difficult for any country to actually get a great white ball spinner. 

 

As for Hasaranga and Shadab, Lets see how Hasaranga does after a few years. 

 

Even Yuzi Chahal and Kuldeep were bowling like atgs, three years ago. 

 

Shadab is not great, he is just good. 

Kuldeep anis better than him(based on potential) and Kumble was a better white ball spinner than him. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

11 minutes ago, Adamant said:

There have only been three White ball great spinners. 

 

Murali

Warne

Saqlain

 

 

Well, Saqlain was a spinner, but was he really a bowler?

Edited November 3, 2022 by BacktoCricaddict

[Lord]

have to be backed.

[prudent_kreeda]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

India is considered as a paradise of spinners. Yet, we don't have a single genuine great white ball spinner in our LOI history.

 

In contrast, our neighborhood produces high quality spinners one after another.

 

From current gen,

 

Pakistan - Shadab

Sri Lanka - Hasaranga

Afghanistan - Rashid

 

All these are out and out match winners in all conditions while we produce the likes of Chahal, Ashwin, Axar, Sundar and Jadeja. Why can't we produce a bowler of this calibre? Even in past too, teams like Pakistan and Sri Lanka have produced Saqlain and Murali and Afridi is another T20I ATG.

 

Inspite of all this, we go with the theory of 3 pacers+ 2 spinners every single time.

My 2 cents 

1.Traditional way the training is given in India and almost mandatory coaching from age 4-5 for each indian kid in conventional way and all along they will be coached in various cricket academies same way. Hence you find Indian kids technically most correct at U-19 levels compared to other nations . Unconventional methods are frowned upon by coaches .Coaches hate innovation .

Spinners are supposed to have a classical action , need to flight & beat the bat, need to bowl at the same place over after over in formative cricketing career. 

This is fine for long format , but does not help in Short format. 

As pointed out above almost all the spinners mentioned above are freaks /mystery types and not conventional  . That gives the clue and almost all of them have developed these mystery skills on their own and most of them have not been through coaching academies from their initial years.

2. Players in india seem to aspire for all formats and hardly anyone seem to prefer short format only. I am yet to see someone in india saying i am only focusing on Short Format. If skills required for short format are not mastered , their performances will be mediocre . Best example - Ashwin . He is Indian Great in Long format by bowling  traditional Offspin  but he does not bowl them in short format as that does not work in short format.  Had that worked Ash is not stupid not to bowl the same way in short format.

Unless players make a decision which format they want to play for India early in their career, they will not develop skills required for short format.

Look at Zampa -  he does not play in Tests but he is the best  Aussie spinner in Short format . He has made that choice and has honed his skills accordingly.  

 

3. Never seen Indian selectors clearly making selection of  one set of players for short format and other set for Long Format . Anyone doing well in Tests also included in 50 overs and in T20s  whereas its clear these 2 formats require different skills sets in addition to long format skills and . Hardly 2-3 guys of any national team will be equally adept at both tests & Short formats. But in India we see majority of test players included in short formats also.     

[nevada]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Well, Saqlain was a spinner, but was he really a bowler?

Sometimes he was. So glad Sehwag finished off this guy's career for good! Doosra, Teesra - was doing all kinds of voodoo with the likes of Arun Lal gushing over his skills and calling him a miracle worker.

 

[vvvslaxman]

Spin bowling has evolved in T20. Skiddy, fastish leg breaks work on most surfaces. Even off spin. That is the reason why Sundar was also successful.  Sundar would have thoroughly enjoyed here.  Ashwin is an old school off spinner who relies on tossing the ball up and trying to beat t hem in flight. Batsmen don't really have to come down the wickets. They can stand in the crease and swing through the line if there is no spin.