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India’s 2-1 win in Australia is not the best triumph overseas, feels Sanjay Manjrekar

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https://www.crictracker.com/indias-2-1-win-in-australia-is-not-the-best-triumph-overseas-feels-sanjay-manjrekar/

 

India started 2019 with a bang winning their first-ever Test series in Australia. The team led by Virat Kohli defeated Tim Paine’s Aussies 2-1 in a four-game series after the fourth Test in Sydney, which India were favourites to win, ended in a draw. India’s head coach Ravi Shastri was so overwhelmed that he even called the win perhaps bigger than India’s first World Cup win in 1983 and the World Championship of Cricket Down Under in 1985. However, former India cricketer Sanjay Manjrekar begged to differ.

 
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India’s 2-1 victory Down Under did not reflect the dominance that India showed in the series but Manjrekar feels there were bigger victories the Asian powerhouse had on foreign soil in the past. According to the 53-year-old former cricketer who now does commentary and analysis on the game, the latest win is India’s fourth-best win in Tests overseas.

India have beaten eight Test-playing nations on their soil starting from the 3-1 win over New Zealand in 1967-68 and the only big team they are yet to beat in an away series is South Africa. Read – Here is a list of India’s maiden away Test series wins

“We have to understand that this Australian batting lineup is the weakest. And before the series began, India had a good chance of winning. But because India weren’t winning in South Africa and England despite having a good team there was that question mark.

So, No.4. Although the quality of the Indian bowling attack was good. But India had a weakness too – going into the series their batting had a problem. And the series would have been a lot closer had Pujara, after India were 40 for 4 on Day 1 (at Adelaide) not got that hundred,” the former cricketer said in a conversation with ESPNCricinfo.

Latest win in Australia is the fourth-best for Manjrekar

For Manjrekar, the 1-0 win in the three-match series against England in 1971 under the late Ajit Wadekar was India’s best overseas series win in Tests. He rated India’s 1-0 in a five-Test series in the Windies earlier that year under the same captain as the second-best overseas Test series win. Manjrekar’s third pick was India’s 2-0 win in England in a three-Test series under Kapil Dev.

Thereafter it was the latest series win in Australia while his fifth preference was the 2-1 victory in three Tests in Pakistan in 2004 under the joint captaincies of Rahul Dravid (2 Tests) and Sourav Ganguly (1 Test).

On the reason for ranking the Wadekar-led win in England in 1971 as the top one, Manjrekar said after the first two Tests were drawn, India’s Bhagwat Chandrasekhar produced a magic spell to help the team win by setting a target of 170-odd. “And finally at Oval, that magic spell from Chandrashekar. They had to get about 170 runs. The pressure must have been immense. A David-Goliath situation and so it has to be No.1,” he said.

 

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For Manjrekar, growing up in 70s would have liked the the wins in WI and Eng. And those were terrific wins by Ind, which even used to find it hard to beat Zim in Zim despite having some of the its best batsmen playing 

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to be frank , wonder as to how can these series wins be ranked?? every series win  especially in SENA + WI  is a great one.Even what Sourav  achieved in PAK was a towering one considering the relations with the neighbours. So , i find it hard to digest these type of ratings. May be first series wins in every  traditionally strong country would have  been a bit better than others. That's all.

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He may be doing it to standout. But strategically its best not to speak too highly of this series win. But take heart and go ahead and beat SA next cycle...or out of cycle early tour. 

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He isn't wrong. I will go a step further and put the 2007 England triumph above this one even though I hardly followed this series. Likewise the 2004 Pakistan series, 2015 Sri Lanka, 2009 NZ and 2006 win in WI should rank high, around the same level as beating the joint worst Oz team of the last 70 years.

 

It may seem like smaller accomplishments now but when you put yourself back in time, all those wins came under extraordinary circumstances and after long droughts as well, NZ after 42 years (lot of scars in that country, Napier save), WI after 35 years (some greats in that WI which was still strong at home, our 1st series win outside Asia since 1986), SLanka after 22 years (from 0-1 down amidst despair and frustration due to our overseas nightmares since 2011 and Galle robbery/choke), 1st time ever in padosiland (threat to life :phehe:).......look at the broader picture.  

 

2007 England was really special, subsequent events have proved just how difficult those conditions are for our players. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the last 15 years only India and SA have won test series there (proper ones, not 2 test jokes..sorry Lanka). Australia with an ATG outfit failed there in 2005 and 2009, then got massacred this decade. 

Edited by Gollum

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13 minutes ago, Gollum said:

He isn't wrong. I will go a step further and put the 2007 England triumph above this one even though I hardly followed this series. Likewise the 2004 Pakistan series, 2015 Sri Lanka, 2009 NZ and 2006 win in WI should rank high, around the same level as beating the joint worst Oz team of the last 70 years.

 

It may seem like a smaller accomplishment now but when you put yourself back in time, all those wins came under extraordinary circumstances and after a long drought as well, NZ after 42 years (lot of scars in that country), WI after 35 years (some greats in that WI which was still strong at home, our 1st series win outside Asia since 1986), SLanka after 22 years (from 0-1 down amidst despair and frustration due to our overseas nightmares since 2011 and Galle robbery/choke), 1st time ever in padosiland (threat to life :phehe:).......look at the broader picture.  

stop being a self loather. I am also not sure what would have happen if Smith and Warner was playing, however beating Aus in Aus is always a big achievement. 

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1 minute ago, SK_IH said:

stop being a self loather. I am also not sure what would have happen if Smith and Warner was playing, however beating Aus in Aus is always a big achievement. 

Point out where I am factually wrong, what has my post got to do with self loathing? It is a fact that we have done better in Oz in the past against much stronger teams, even if results column don't show. This team is also lucky it has DRS, we got robbed so many times there in the past because of their convict umpires. 

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4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Point out where I am factually wrong, what has my post got to do with self loathing? It is a fact that we have done better in Oz in the past against much stronger teams, even if results column don't show. This team is also lucky it has DRS, we got robbed so many times there in the past because of their convict umpires. 

this is a big achievement simply because after a long time Ind team should some resilience and came back to take lead in the series after being 1-1 at Perth. Even this Virat led team can go downhill once such a thing occurs. Ind bowling outbowilng the Aus bowling was also something to cherish.

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27 minutes ago, Gollum said:

He isn't wrong. I will go a step further and put the 2007 England triumph above this one even though I hardly followed this series. Likewise the 2004 Pakistan series, 2015 Sri Lanka, 2009 NZ and 2006 win in WI should rank high, around the same level as beating the joint worst Oz team of the last 70 years.

 

It may seem like a smaller accomplishment now but when you put yourself back in time, all those wins came under extraordinary circumstances and after a long drought as well, NZ after 42 years (lot of scars in that country, Napier save), WI after 35 years (some greats in that WI which was still strong at home, our 1st series win outside Asia since 1986), SLanka after 22 years (from 0-1 down amidst despair and frustration due to our overseas nightmares since 2011 and Galle robbery/choke), 1st time ever in padosiland (threat to life :phehe:).......look at the broader picture.  

 

2007 England was really special, subsequent events have proved just how difficult those conditions are for our players. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the last 15 years only India and SA have won test series there (proper ones, not 2 test jokes..sorry Lanka). Australia with an ATG outfit failed there in 2005 and 2009, then got massacred this decade. 

To me our best overseas cricket came in BG Trophy 2007-08, even though we lost that. Most of us have forgotten the pressure our players were put in by the Aussie media, Hayden, Ponting, Clarke and Symonds and to comeback at Perth win there and end 16 win streak second time. Numbers don't show the drama of that series.

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1 minute ago, SK_IH said:

without giving a list, can you tell what specific series win was Ind biggest achievement overseas ?

Biggest achievement overseas: SA 2010/11, battle for the top spot. Collectively those 2 teams fielded 5-6 ATGs and 10-11 national greats. 

 

Biggest win overseas: England 1971, they were number 1 team then and fielded many greats. In the lead up to that series they were undefeated at home for a few years, Aus/WI/Pak/NZ all toured and failed. We went with a spin heavy attack and won. 

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Just before the series  ...  This Australian bowling attack was supposed to be one of their better ones ever, especially while bowling in Australia  ...  and our batting was supposed to be very weak overseas. 

 

Add to that the pressure created by the Australian media and ex-cricketers on touring teams just before and during the series. And the pressure of losing the 2 earlier away test series this year.

 

So,  this is a very very big achievement  !   Don't know about rankings.

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10 hours ago, zen said:

For Manjrekar, growing up in 70s would have liked the the wins in WI and Eng. And those were terrific wins by Ind, which even used to find it hard to beat Zim in Zim despite having some of the its best batsmen playing 

An overseas win on a spinning track in WI cant be called greatest.  our weakness has always been fast bowling and when our fast bowlers out bowl opposition's fats bowlers at their home and win the series then that is what we dream of.  There is a reason we never won in Australia before, not even in 80s when they were quite weak and were rebuilding as spin hardly played a part there in the past and we lacked the fast bowlers. .

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Sanju Manju gets a lot of flak on ICF and justifiably so, he is an insufferable ass clown. But what has he said wrong here? He isn't demeaning Indian cricket, in fact he is rewinding memories and paying tribute to our past. Indian cricket didn't start overseas tours post Kohli era, there is some great history associated and our cricketers have achieved serious stuff in the past. Not that I expect the Kohli cult to get it, but current rockstars stand on the shoulders of giants, giants who paved the way for a better future for Indian cricket.

 

Kids, new fans and Kohli cultists may jizz over this series result, carry on. Some oldie would have followed the 1980-81 Aus tour with keen interest and may even rate it higher who knows, all a matter of perspective. And when I look at the teams fielded, Chappell's Aussies look legit scary and the MCG victory which saw one of the greatest 100s by a legendary Indian batsman and one of the all time greatest bowling spells by our greatest fast bowler....epic stuff. I wasn't born then but doesn't mean I can't appreciate the significance of such an achievement in the home umpire era when convicts fielded 13 men and were nasty both on and off field. 

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11 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Biggest achievement overseas: SA 2010/11, battle for the top spot. Collectively those 2 teams fielded 5-6 ATGs and 10-11 national greats. 

 

Biggest win overseas: England 1971, they were number 1 team then and fielded many greats. In the lead up to that series they were undefeated at home for a few years, Aus/WI/Pak/NZ all toured and failed. We went with a spin heavy attack and won. 

Also that WI attack was rubbish. They had no good fast bowler in that series and as a result most of the tests were drawn.  Even Sobers was 35 years old and retired 2 years after that.  That series is known for batting marathons.  5 batsmen scored over 400 runs in that series.  highest wicket taker Venkat averaged 33, Bedi 43, Prasanna 37.  West Indian highest wicket taker was also a spinner averaged 30.  Sobers had 12 wickets in 5 tests.  

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7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

An overseas win on a spinning track in WI cant be called greatest.  our weakness has always been fast bowling and when our fast bowlers out bowl opposition's fats bowlers at their home and win the series then that is what we dream of.  There is a reason we never won in Australia before, not even in 80s when they were quite weak and were rebuilding as spin hardly played a part there in the past and we lacked the fast bowlers. .

We didn't win in the 80s because of rain and some patriotic umpiring and I can't stress the umpiring part enough. 

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17 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Biggest achievement overseas: SA 2010/11, battle for the top spot. Collectively those 2 teams fielded 5-6 ATGs and 10-11 national greats. 

 

Biggest win overseas: England 1971, they were number 1 team then and fielded many greats. In the lead up to that series they were undefeated at home for a few years, Aus/WI/Pak/NZ all toured and failed. We went with a spin heavy attack and won. 

Dont think a drawn series cant triumph over a won series. About, 1971 for us fans, its all about anecdotes now but i have heard stories about Ind being lucky with weather in the previous tests matches but yeah Ind winning at that time must have been huge. 

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40 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Point out where I am factually wrong, what has my post got to do with self loathing? It is a fact that we have done better in Oz in the past against much stronger teams, even if results column don't show. This team is also lucky it has DRS, we got robbed so many times there in the past because of their convict umpires. 

done better without winning. how is that even possible?

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4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

We didn't win in the 80s because of rain and some patriotic umpiring and I can't stress the umpiring part enough. 

Also, we won in 2007 England because of rain that saved us at Lords.  cant have rain as an excuse.

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6 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

Dont think a drawn series cant triumph over a won series. About, 1971 for us fans, its all about anecdotes now but i have heard stories about Ind being lucky with weather in the previous tests matches but yeah Ind winning at that time must have been huge. 

WI also was at its weakest in terms of bowling in that series like Australia now is at its weakest in terms of batting.

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3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

WI also was at its weakest in terms of bowling in that series like Australia now is at its weakest in terms of batting.

i think he is talking about Eng 1971, not WI 1971

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51 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

stop being a self loather. I am also not sure what would have happen if Smith and Warner was playing, however beating Aus in Aus is always a big achievement. 

Aus lost to SA in SA after a long time despite Smith and Warner playing, so, it is not impossible as both are pretty much FTBs.

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14 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Also that WI attack was rubbish. They had no good fast bowler in that series and as a result most of the tests were drawn.  Even Sobers was 35 years old and retired 2 years after that.  That series is known for batting marathons.  5 batsmen scored over 400 runs in that series.  highest wicket taker Venkat averaged 33, Bedi 43, Prasanna 37.  West Indian highest wicket taker was also a spinner averaged 30.  Sobers had 12 wickets in 5 tests.  

If that WI bowling attack is rubbish, what does it make the current OZ batting? Maha rubbish? That WI batting still had 3 ATGs in Sobers, Kanhai, Lloyd...and Roy Fredericks was the trailblazer of that era. Moreover home umpires made them even more formidable, they refused to give Sobers out that series.

 

In 1972 Sobers annihilated Australia at MCG in the Aus-ROTW series, giving special treatment to Lillee who was at the peak of his powers. So age argument is not valid. Enjoy!!!

 

Edited by Gollum

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14 hours ago, Switchblade said:

 

Infact, i have heard form my uncle that initial test wins (could be what manju is mentioning here) have made this country cricket crazy....

Infact, football was as popular as cricket back then, if not more....

These wins made us cricket crazy nation....otherwise we would have been football crazy nation...

Not 100% sure but this si what i heard as a kid...

May be someone here confirm this..

 

If it is true, then what manju is saying is absolutely true

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2 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

i think he is talking about Eng 1971, not WI 1971

that was a low scoring series and spinners ruled even in that.  all 3 top wickets takers were Indian spinners and that England team was good but did not have single bowler as good as current Aussie or England bowlers.

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12 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

Dont think a drawn series cant triumph over a won series. About, 1971 for us fans, its all about anecdotes now but i have heard stories about Ind being lucky with weather in the previous tests matches but yeah Ind winning at that time must have been huge. 

 

9 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

done better without winning. how is that even possible?

I have a different opinion in this matter.....draws vs wins argument. 

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6 minutes ago, Gollum said:

If that WI bowling attack is rubbish, what does it make the current OZ batting? Maha rubbish? That WI batting still had 3 ATGs in Sobers, Kanhai, Lloyd...and Roy Fredericks was the trailblazer of that era. Moreover home umpires made them even more formidable, they refused to give Sobers out that series.

 

In 1972 Sobers annihilated Australia at MCG in the Aus-ROTW series, giving special treatment to Lillee who was at the peak of his powers. So age argument is not valid. Enjoy!!!

 

but then current Aussie bowling is as good as any especially at home.  Only thing is i will always consider winning on the back of fast bowlers overseas over winning on the back of spinners.  it is not easy bowling opposition fast bowlers at their home. That is why 2007 England, 1986 England, and this Aussie win should be on top shelf. 

Edited by rkt.india

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Thats all right but why were these experts not saying such things before we won? Doing it post the series win feels like a pathetic attempt to run down the scale of achievement.

 

Did you see anyone in Australia claim 2004 win in India was not their final frontier conquered? Sachin did not play in 3 Tests of the series and Aus saved Chennai test due to rains

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I agree with a lot of people above it is tough tto rank these wins. Aus win just comes on top as they are the best all time Cricket team with most difficult place to win there. Other Asian teams have not even won a match in 21st century here.

 

If you would ask any Indian cricket fan their biggest dream for our team it would be winning a test series in Australia. We were able to string together 2 wins before this in last few decades and we were just short of winning 3 matches in a series itself.

 

This achievement looks not so great because now we have done it. Winning is South Africa maybe tough right now condition wise but we have done much better there and have come kind of close few times and it feels like with time we should be able to to do this.

 

Many times in past we have faltered overseas to build upon good start or a win in the series but this time we kept on getting better. Usually we get better when it is too late (SA series) or generally we just lose it big time as series goes on (0-8).

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

that was a low scoring series and spinners ruled even in that.  all 3 top wickets takers were Indian spinners and that England team was good but did not have single bowler as good as current Aussie or England bowlers.

Yeah right. John Snow and Underwood were gully ke thulle. You like to argue for the sake of arguing. 

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18 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Also, we won in 2007 England because of rain that saved us at Lords.  cant have rain as an excuse.

Did you miss the umpiring part? Not 1-2 but literally a scenario where we had 16 wickets to get our runs while opponent had 30 lives? 

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24 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Aus lost to SA in SA after a long time despite Smith and Warner playing, so, it is not impossible as both are pretty much FTBs.

i have my doubts but I still cherish this victory 

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13 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

but then current Aussie bowling is as good as any especially at home.  Only thing is i will always consider winning on the back of fast bowlers overseas over winning on the back of spinners.  it is not easy bowling opposition fast bowlers at their home. That is why 2007 England, 1986 England, and this Aussie win should be on top shelf. 

Only thing I will consider is winning overseas, no matter how it comes. And if it is tough to outbowl the opposition fast bowlers, imagine how tough it is to win with spinners against opposition fast bowlers? Our spin quartet was legendary and shouldn't be downplayed because of their bowling style. 

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Just now, SK_IH said:

stop being a self loather. I am also not sure what would have happen if Smith and Warner was playing, however beating Aus in Aus is always a big achievement. 

It is but don't over-hype this achievement as if it's our greatest overseas win ever! This is Aus worst batting in 100+ years - fact! Current Aus bowling is also way overrated, just look at their numbers last year & this series, worst bowling avg & S/R among the top 5 or 6 test nations. So while it's hard to gauge things just based on reputation or anecdotes, the real numbers tell a different story! Also did I mention we're number 1 for about 3 years now, what's Aus ranking :cantstop:

Edited by R!TTER

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26 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Did you see anyone in Australia claim 2004 win in India was not their final frontier conquered? Sachin did not play in 3 Tests of the series and Aus saved Chennai test due to rains

Sachin did not play 2 tests and he wasn't the same player post tennis elbow. 

 

Based on what happened next year in Bangalore (Pak) and 2 years later in Mumbai (England) I will say Australia were robbed of a straightforward victory in Chennai due to rain. I give a 1 in a 100 chance of that out of form Indian batting unit pulling off that chase against that Aussie bowling on 5th day Chepauk track. 

Edited by Gollum

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8 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Only thing I will consider is winning overseas, no matter how it comes. And if it is tough to outbowl the opposition fast bowlers, imagine how tough it is to win with spinners against opposition fast bowlers? Our spin quartet was legendary and shouldn't be downplayed because of their bowling style. 

win spinners in England and Aus is only possible if those team do not have good fast bowlers which was the case in 1971 England and WI.

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7 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

It is but don't over-hype this achievement as if it's our greatest overseas win ever! This is Aus worst batting in 100+ years - fact! Current Aus bowling is also way overrated, just look at their numbers last year & this series, worst bowling avg & S/R among the top 5 or 6 test nations. So while it's hard to gauge things just based on reputation or anecdotes, the real numbers tell a different story! Also did I mention we're number 1 for about 3 years now, what's Aus ranking :cantstop:

abey tutiye, their fast bowler's record is so bad this series because we played them well.  If they had averages of 20s in the series, you think Indian team would have won.  Most people on this forum had given in first session of this series itself when we were 40/4 saying this Aussie bowling will run through this batting line.

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That was a relatively flat pitch, with Sehwag in that form, & lower order w/PP & Pathan doing really well last test I'd put the odds even at best. Of course it's hard to assume anything based purely on conjecture, so this is just a pointless exercise given we ultimately lost the series.

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Just now, rkt.india said:

abey tutiye, their fast bowler's record is so bad this series because we played them well.  If they had averages of 20s in the series, you think Indian team would have won.  Most people on this forum had given in first session of this series itself when we were 40/4 saying this Aussie bowling will run through this batting line.

Abey bin pende ke, did you see their records in SA? We did bat better but cricket isn't a linear progression nor is it a 0 sum game -

 

Lets's say 0 is par, we had +5 batting & +5 bowling

They had -5 batting & +2 bowling

The difference is 10 in batting & 3 in bowling, it reflects disproportionately because we won the key moments & were generally competitive in all sessions!

 

On the one hand you overhype this Aus attack as better than anything we've faced in the past, except 2k, & on the other hand you say we batted so much better they were rendered impotent? Are you right in the head or what, if these guys don't have the numbers to back them up what does that say about your theory?

Edited by R!TTER

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2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

That was a relatively flat pitch, with Sehwag in that form, & lower order w/PP & Pathan doing really well last test I'd put the odds even at best. Of course it's hard to assume anything based purely on conjecture, so this is just a pointless exercise given we ultimately lost the series.

Sehwag wasn't good in 4th innings. Our middle order was in poor form and Aussie bowlers had our measure, McGrath-Gillespie gave a masterclass in fast bowling that series. Moreover 5th day pitch and last innings have their psychological effect on batsmen, we huffed and puffed in Chennai 3 years earlier against the same team and that time we had in form batsmen against a rattled Australia. 

 

Agree with your bolded bit but have to make my points when so many Indian supporters assume that we were a lock-in to win that match. 

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