India's conservative starts batting first in ODIs hurting them

[Jimmy Cliff]

 

Good to see more talk around this.

[SK_IH]

Let's go back to the genesis of this approach. It was the Champions Trophy, 2013. India went in with two new openers & nobody had an idea how they ll fare. Both of them prospered. Early reasoning given for "steady" starts was two new balls & "English" conditions.Thereafter, the approach has stayed the course, irrespective of conditions.

The middle order has been rotated/dropped/reinstated from time to time but the top 3 have not modified their style of play. These guys have maintained their averages with their "set" style & hence cannot be questioned.

Let's take the current middle order for example now. Pant's innings last match was a freak innings which ll not repeated every day & therefore these type of efforts going waste is disheartening. The morons at the top order need to understand that because its been far too often the case that the top order is playing the way they want to play & want middle order to play magical innings with consistency. The current middle order will be again be rotated & drafted out if the status quo is maintained. Pant anyways came into the XI because of an injury.

Lastly, 100s are ingrained in our culture. Top 3 emphasise that beautifully. KL Rahul has embraced the culture as well. The match ups, match situation, team demands are all secondary when it comes to looting some cheap runs.

 

 

 

[Suhaan]

15 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

Let's go back to the genesis of this approach. It was the Champions Trophy, 2013. India went in with two new openers & nobody had an idea how they ll fare. Both of them prospered. Early reasoning given for "steady" starts was two new balls & "English" conditions.Thereafter, the approach has stayed the course, irrespective of conditions.

The middle order has been rotated/dropped/reinstated from time to time but the top 3 have not modified their style of play. These guys have maintained their averages with their "set" style & hence cannot be questioned.

Let's take the current middle order for example now. Pant's innings last match was a freak innings which ll not repeated every day & therefore these type of efforts going waste is disheartening. The morons at the top order need to understand that because its been far too often the case that the top order is playing the way they want to play & want middle order to play magical innings with consistency. The current middle order will be again be rotated & drafted out if the status quo is maintained. Pant anyways came into the XI because of an injury.

Lastly, 100s are ingrained in our culture. Top 3 emphasise that beautifully. KL Rahul has embraced the culture as well. The match ups, match situation, team demands are all secondary when it comes to looting some cheap runs.

 

 

 

Rohit ka toh samajh me bh aata hai,great leader takes a lot of time to get going but compensates for it later,but Kohli,Dhawan ka koi kaam nahi

Kohli toh waise hi 4th class Kaptaan hai,besides he's into twilight end of his career,with limited ability he's gonna get expose more the more he plays

Dhawan is done and dusted,

Atmost we can keep Rohit(just for his leadership acumen)Kohli has nothing left to be cashed in

[raki05]

10 hours ago, dilliboy said:

As long as fans and Indian media lap up these stats and milestones while ignore unselfish play like Pant's yesterday, we will see this crap. Yesterday in some mid match analysis show, one expert was saying that why doesn't Pant want these 100s when they were there for the taking? I was like wtf..if he didn't play out of his skin 300 would have been farfetched. Our obsession with meaningless century landmarks needs to stop

Especially when they gave mom to fraud Dhawan last time. It suggests that they endorse this selfish behaviour and hence another frauds Rahul and kohli played like mongia and prabhakar for their personal milestone. I remember prabhakar and mongia was dropped for their selfishness and here moron captain and tm promotes such selfishness blatantly.

[raki05]

7 hours ago, Adamant said:

I agree with you on the selfish batting approach in the last two matches. 

But i am quite sure this won't happen in the next match. I think now our top 3 know that the players playing below them are equally good. So they will change their mentality. 

 

Secondly earlier when we used to have Rayudu, Jadhav, Dhoni in the middle order it definitely wasn't a good idea for the top 3 to go all bonkers coz there was no trust in the middle order. 

 

In this odi series middle order have shown their capability and now I expect the top 3 to change their approach if they still stick to their ancient methodology then they will be at fault for losing this series. 

 

 

I think it's not about this match it's a pattern that repeats. It has happened before once against aus and ei where they chased down sub par target of 330-40 where Indian batters played selfishly. Later on when they got criticized rohit blasted 200 against australian while batting first and we made 387 and then we made around 400 against when they chased 340 just one match before. So it's a pattern may be next match they play aggressively and we might win but in next series they ll again go back to their typical approach.

[Stan AF]

Does anyone else here noticed that these three guys ( Rohit, Dhawan and kohli) are too chummy with each other?...They are way too friendly compared to anything else previously in the Indian cricket. How can you make tough decisions like dropping players when all of em are your pals.

 

These three have been more or less the top 3 for the last 8 years or so now. Barring few matches here and there the batting order hasn't changed at all.

I mean I have never seen anything like this before. Take the previous generation for example, you had Sehwag sachin gambhir Ganguly regularly rotated among the top 3 positions with even dravid thrown in around at #3 for good measure..

 

Talking of tough decisions, dravid had Sachin declared at 194, Ganguly had kumble removed for the wc final, Ganguly dropped himself to promote Dhoni up the batting order, Dhoni had Ganguly and dravid removed and so and so forth.

 

The above are tough choices and though one may or may not agree with them or if it actually worked or not it was taken and it had to be respected as it was taken for the good of the team.

 

These three have more or less monopolized the batting orders so far. And that too for a good 7-8 years. I haven't seen any tough decisions made for the improvement of the team lately.

 

 

[zen]

Good to see this being discussed in cricinfo! Need to focus more on this 

[express bowling]

Just now, sarchasm said:

And how about KLR's deadbatting in 43rd over?

 

Pathetic batting !!

[SK_IH]

30 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Rohit ka toh samajh me bh aata hai,great leader takes a lot of time to get going but compensates for it later,but Kohli,Dhawan ka koi kaam nahi

Kohli toh waise hi 4th class Kaptaan hai,besides he's into twilight end of his career,with limited ability he's gonna get expose more the more he plays

Dhawan is done and dusted,

Atmost we can keep Rohit(just for his leadership acumen)Kohli has nothing left to be cashed in

Kohli is going nowhere till 2023. The only thing to look forward is whether Kohli will make changes to ODI side as he has been forced to do in T20s. I ll no go by what he says in the press conferences because he never follows what he says. Unfortunately there is no accountability left in Indian cricket, so even thinking of captaincy change is futile, we just have to hope for some sense prevailing over & above some selfish interests.

[neel roy]

3 hours ago, SK_IH said:

Let's go back to the genesis of this approach. It was the Champions Trophy, 2013. India went in with two new openers & nobody had an idea how they ll fare. Both of them prospered. Early reasoning given for "steady" starts was two new balls & "English" conditions.Thereafter, the approach has stayed the course, irrespective of conditions.

The middle order has been rotated/dropped/reinstated from time to time but the top 3 have not modified their style of play. These guys have maintained their averages with their "set" style & hence cannot be questioned.

Let's take the current middle order for example now. Pant's innings last match was a freak innings which ll not repeated every day & therefore these type of efforts going waste is disheartening. The morons at the top order need to understand that because its been far too often the case that the top order is playing the way they want to play & want middle order to play magical innings with consistency. The current middle order will be again be rotated & drafted out if the status quo is maintained. Pant anyways came into the XI because of an injury.

Lastly, 100s are ingrained in our culture. Top 3 emphasise that beautifully. KL Rahul has embraced the culture as well. The match ups, match situation, team demands are all secondary when it comes to looting some cheap runs.

 

 

 

Very well put. Now just consider England s approach. In first match Bairstow wanted to smash a six at 94 as they wanted to follow their template and it didnt matter if he got out. Thats the belief they have. Though I want to see how England plays while setting a total. India could have easily chased the target of 337 in that ground and they have done it before. Question is could they have stopped England from scoring 375 380 .. i doubt it.

[SinNombre]

I was reading the BBC article about the documentary of the SL win in the 96 WC. 

 

This is 25 years back. 

 

Aravinda de Silva S/R 107

Ranatunga S/R 114

Jayasuriya S/R 131

 

Even the likes of Lara (105) and Anwar (96) were batting faster than our top 3 now. 

 

This was what was required to win a WC in the subcontinent 25 years back.

 

Batting S/R have gone up by 20 or so in those 25 years and our top 3 are batting worse than the Sri Lankans in that WC. 

 

[sage]

[sage]

Worrying part is how many 300+ totals we've conceded lol

[Ankit_sharma03]

15 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

The first 6 overs is usually enough to take the shine off the ball and for the ball to stop swinging.

 

Wasting any more overs means you are taking the shine off your performance.

 

and england team is showing it so its not that its something impossible 

[Vijy]

6 hours ago, sarchasm said:

It's the optimism that kills. Kohli isn't going anywhere till 2027.

2027 seems a bit soon. if kaptaan has his way, he'll play the 2031 WC too.

[cowboysfan]

what is wrong with ICF? every freaking thread is about our batting but no mention of the pathetic bowlers who cant take wickets early,this has been a problem for years now even with Bumrah who sucks at taking early wickets.this whole mess is on the bowlers who cant take wickets and cant keep batsmen quiet either.

[Turning_track]

1 hour ago, cowboysfan said:

what is wrong with ICF? every freaking thread is about our batting but no mention of the pathetic bowlers who cant take wickets early,this has been a problem for years now even with Bumrah who sucks at taking early wickets.this whole mess is on the bowlers who cant take wickets and cant keep batsmen quiet either.

It isn't all hunky dory in our bowling department but things will improve when Shami & Jadeja return. Fitness issues have also affected Bumrah in recent times . Lets see how things go when all of them return afresh & play together. 

Coming back to our top-3, it is the rigidity at the top to go all guns blazing on super flat tracks where it all becomes evident. Dew factor does come into play but what if in a few venues the dew isn't the issue & the pitch still behaves well for batting in both the innings like we have seen in many matches. 

What is stopping the senior trio at the top to score something like 130/1 in 16 overs rather than 92/1? In the previous match it was 66/2 in first 15. Why the onus to increase the scoring rate has to be always put on youngsters in the middle order? And this plan of preserving the wickets from the start, playing cautiously and hitting in last 10 overs has become way too predictable for opposition teams. Singles and doubles simply isn't enough from 15-40 overs, there has to be much more boundary hitting shots to be involved in such small grounds.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Turning_track

[Turning_track]

9 hours ago, sarchasm said:

And how about KLR's deadbatting in 43rd over?

After reaching the 90s mark he did start playing slowly dealing only in singles. 

[poi]

“Rotating the strike” means a player cannot/doesn’t hit boundaries.

 

”Striking above 130 after scoring a 50” means  wasting 70 balls. Icing on the cake is if the player cannot convert that to a century.

 

“Technically perfect drives” means amazing highlight reels.

[zen]

2 hours ago, cowboysfan said:

what is wrong with ICF? every freaking thread is about our batting but no mention of the pathetic bowlers who cant take wickets early,this has been a problem for years now even with Bumrah who sucks at taking early wickets.this whole mess is on the bowlers who cant take wickets and cant keep batsmen quiet either.

 

Because of the conditions, people know that this is a batting shootout w/ both teams not playing their preferred bowling line ups ... In fact, Eng's batting is not even full strength, while Ind's batting is on paper so people except it to carry the mantle 

Edited March 28, 2021 by zen